The complicated discussion of GOAT....

Lionheart7167

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The GOAT discussion gets brought up like 20x a day on Sherdog, and I think people are too quick to label their guy "THE" guy. When you talk about the GOAT it's a complicated discussion. How do we define GOAT??? Is it longest win streak? Most title defenses? Toughest opposition? Ability to bounce between weight classes successfully? Etc. Rarely, is there one quantitative or qualitative factor. With that in mind, I thought it would be interesting to have a meaningful discussion around this, rather than a point fingers and single out kinda discussion. Trolls welcome too.

Generally speaking the GOAT discussion includes 4 fighters; Jones, Silva, GSP and Fedor. Feel free to add your feedback..

Fedor
Pro's: Longest win streak at HW, undefeated in Pride, beat 4 UFC HW champs, beat arguably the best HW during their primes, the fact that he did this at HW where KO's happen in an instant, and looked sensational is an X factor that cannot be overlooked.
Cons: A lot of those "wins" were against cans, never fought in the UFC, got smoked when faced "real competition" later in his career

Jones:
Pro's: Longest win streak at LHW (barring DQ loss), Most title defenses, Most win's over quality competition- arguably more than any other "GOAT"- includes several former champs in their primes, number one prospects, seasoned veterans and undefeated fighters (Cormier), has never truly lost (save for DQ over Hamill where he dominated).
Cons: Large periods of inactivity, very real possibility he used steroids to win (as he's already tested positive), Gus win should have been a loss

Silva:
Pros: Longest reign as MW champ AND longest reign as champ in UFC, Most title defenses at MW AND most title defenses PERIOD, fought several times as LHW and won those too, looked indestructible in most of his fights
Cons: Fought arguably the weakest competition of any long reigning champ, possibly used steroids (as he tested positive once), Has tainted legacy with several losses in his twilight years

GSP:
Pros: Longest reign as WW champ and most title defenses as champ. Avenged only 2 losses against both fighters (Hughes 2x, Serra), able to develop strongest game plans for individual fighters,
Cons: Like Silva, he didn't fight exclusively high caliber level fighters (such as Jones), (really) lost to Hendricks. Never fought in any other weight classes. Measured approach to fighting excludes him, because he was a "chess" player rather than trying to win fights

What does everyone think? For my money I have to go with Jon Jones. Love him or hate him (I hate him...my favorite is Fedor) I think he's the clear GOAT. He's beaten the best level of opposition, never TRULY lost and has looked almost indestructible save for the Gus fight. GSP, Silva and Fedor have arguments to be made as far as titles and length of win streaks, but I just think that Jones has faced the most former champs, prospects and great fighters and looked good beating them all.
 
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HW: Fedor
LHW: Jones
MW: Anderson
WW: GSP
LW: BJ
FW: Aldo
BW: Cruz
FLW: MM
 
If Conor beats Floyd then in my eyes he is greatest combat athlete of all time.

Otherwise, I'd have to put Jones up top in my own rankings although I'd say they are all close. Jones has hurt himself by missing all these prime years
 
If Conor beats Floyd then in my eyes he is greatest combat athlete of all time.

Otherwise, I'd have to put Jones up top in my own rankings although I'd say they are all close. Jones has hurt himself by missing all these prime years
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It's not complicated. It's Fedor.

It's certainly complicated. People shit on JBJ for fighting Sonnen and Belfort, and conveniently forget that Fedor's streak included a bunch of people he had absolutely no business fighting.

JBJ wins > Fedor's wins, not to mention his only loss came after getting DQ'd in a fight that should have already been over.
 
Jones fought former champs in their primes? Who, Machida?
 
The fact you don't mention Aldo DQs your entire list
 
It's certainly complicated. People shit on JBJ for fighting Sonnen and Belfort, and conveniently forget that Fedor's streak included a bunch of people he had absolutely no business fighting.

JBJ wins > Fedor's wins, not to mention his only loss came after getting DQ'd in a fight that should have already been over.

Who has Jones beaten that is equal to Big Nog or Crocop in their prime ?

The only in prime young fighter Jones beat is Gus. That's it. Only good fighter Gus beat is a declining Shogun.

Also. Steroids.
 
Who has Jones beaten that is equal to Big Nog or Crocop in their prime ?

The only in prime young fighter Jones beat is Gus. That's it. Only good fighter Gus beat is a declining Shogun.

Also. Steroids.

DC smashes Big Nog at any point in his career. Cro cop was obviously top of the mountain at that time, but if you're going to call out anyone for roids.....

Also, Fedor's best wins outside of that are Andrei, Randleman, and Coleman. Not exactly Murderer's Row.

Fedor is up there, but people who act like he is head and shoulders above the other greats are out of their minds.
 
The problem of GOAT is a little more weird after you look few more times at it. Most people try to make GOAT candidates fight.

Aldo is without a question FW GOAT, and now many people will say "Conor KOed him he suck!!!!!" because they are totally retarded creatures that should have no right to live.

Also making the fight of GOATs is dumb in another way.

Fedor is clearly HW GOAT without a shade of doubt I see the comment right away "FedorFanBoy - of course, HE IS CAN CRUSHER!!!!" Russians as fighters dont have such a long fighting years and I dont know why. There is no single top 10 russian fighter after 35 years old mark. They maybe train harder and spar more so their bodies cant take so much after some time.

In fight against Arlovski he showed signs of slowing down and you all know it. And he was only 32 years old. That KO would probably happens anyway but he didnt look good in this fight.



People should keep GOAT discussions in their weight divisions. It would simplify things. Also we should not only look at records, but on the way of wins, accomplishments outside the ring and if a fighter is an icon, a hero? If he is something bigger then the sport? Fedor was a myth in his times. He was god in Russia, he held olympic flame, he was loved all around the world. Even americans are his crazy fans. Next in line would be Anderson and GSP. Both are icons of the sport.


Fedor Andy GSP without a particular order. They are just heroes of MMA and nobody can deny it.
 
Jones and Anderson took PEDs which is a shame. Fedor is the JMMA GOAT but not the MMA GOAT.

I would say GSP with Conor coming behind quickly. A win over Mayweather and a belt defence would make him the best combat sports athlete ever.
 
Jones and Anderson took PEDs which is a shame. Fedor is the JMMA GOAT but not the MMA GOAT.

I would say GSP with Conor coming behind quickly. A win over Mayweather and a belt defence would make him the best combat sports athlete ever.
How does 1 title defense make you the best at anything? Why can't Conor defend ten times and shut everyone up?
 
Allow me to correct you with facts.

A lot of those "wins" were against cans

Let's compare Fedor and Anderson Silva's schedule vs. top ranked opponents. Note that Anderson is the longest reigning UFC champion ever, with the most top wins.

Anderson Silva's top wins per year in the UFC:

2006: 1 top win
2007:2
2008:1
2009:2
2010: 2
2011:2
2012: 1

Average: 1.5 top fighters per year

Fedor's top wins per year outside of the UFC:

2002: 2 top wins
2003: 2
2004: 3
2005: 1
2006:1
2007: 1
2008: 1
2009: 2

Average: 1.6 top fighters per year

The only difference here is that Fedor fought up to 5 times a year while Anderson and other UFC champions never fought more than 3 times a year. Fedor fought some lower tier opponents in between his top wins which isn't a bad thing since he was being more active (probably due to financial reasons) and it was in fact risky because he could have very well lost to a low tier fighter. To give you an example of this, Fedor fought Valavicius 3 weeks after beating the #1 HW Nogueira. He fought Zulu 4 months after beating Crocop. On the other hand some UFC fighters average 2 fights a year.

So as you can see, fighting cans back then was not a bad thing. Anderson Silva got the exact same treatment in Pride and guess what? he was beaten twice, by cans. GSP fought a can and guess what? He tapped to strikes and lost his belt.

never fought in the UFC

The UFC didn't have the best HW division until it adquired Strikeforce.

Pride, Affliction and Strikeforce all had better HW's than the UFC. Fedor actually fought better competition by staying away from the UFC.

got smoked when faced "real competition" later in his career

Hardly real competition compared to the fighters Fedor used to fight.

Fedor lost to Werdum, who had losses to Nogueira and Arlovski. Two fighters Fedor defeated.
Fedor lost to Bigfoot, who has losses to Mark Hunt and Arlovski. Two fighters Fedor defeated.
Fedor lost to Henderson, who lost to Nogueira, whom Fedor defeated twice.

Also 2/3 of the fighters he lost to were Pride veterans. So Fedor didn't really lose to any new talented fighters. He lost to guys that were never on his level while he was in his prime. He lost not because he fought great fighters but because he was no longer as great. It was evident in his fight vs. Brett Rogers that Fedor was past his prime. Even his striking coach said Fedor had visibly slowed down before his first loss.

Bottom line, the GOAT discussion is not complicated at all when you actually know the facts. Fedor is the GOAT. Plain and simple.

Cheers.
 
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