Why BJ Penn is still the greatest Lightweight of all-time.

The Natural Born Runner

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Okay.

He was arguably the best Lightweight fighter for 8 years.

He essentially was the best from the berth of his career. He proved this by beating Uno, Thomas, Serra and Gomi all within the first 3 years of his career.

He was a natural born fighter, the type of guy who'd either finish you or you would leave you looking like you'd been run over by a truck - just ask Diego Sanchez or Joe Stevenson.

He beat a hoard of names that people just overlook. Some I've listed below:

Din Thomas - 12-1 at the time of their fight.
Caol Uno twice - 13-4-2 and 15-5-2 at the time of their fights.
Matt Serra - 6-1 at the time of their fight.
Takanori Gomi - 14-1 at the time of their fight.
Duane Ludwig - 10-2 at the time of their fight (yes, I know this was at Welterweight, but they were both Lightweights before this fight).
Jens Pulver - 21-7-1 at the time of their fight (arguably beat the guy twice, but lost a Majority Decision back in the day).
Joe Stevenson - 28-7 at the time of their fight (had only lost one fight in 5 years immediately prior to this fight).
Sean Sherk - 34-2-1 at the time of their fight (unbeaten at Lightweight at the time).
Kenny Florian - 11-3 at the time of their fight (7 fight winning streak immediately prior to this fight).
Diego Sanchez - 21-2 at the time of their fight (unbeaten at Lightweight at the time).

Bear in mind, he finished 9 of the 10 names I mentioned.

You also HAVE TO factor in that he fought in a time where the Lightweight division was a mess, the UFC couldn't make their mind up if they wanted it or not. He had contract disputes and went to fight in K1 where he was fighting guys who have fought as big as Light Heavyweight and even won some of those bouts. His fights at Welterweight have very little to do with his Lightweight resume, but the fact is he was way too small for 170lbs and he still beat the unbeatable Matt Hughes via stoppage is simply stunning. The guy had a 3 year stretch outside of his division and outside of the UFC, that hurt his resume, but not really his fault.

Not to mention that many people had him beating Frankie the first time out.

I don't think Pettis, Henderson, dos Anjos or Frankie can stand up to that at 155lbs especially over a 9 year span from debut at Lightweight to retirement from Lightweight. Some of their wins are fantastic, might even supersede some of Penn's, but Penn has one loss at 155lbs which wasn't competitive. Penn was never subbed like Benson, was never laid on and beat on like Pettis, was never knocked from pillar to post like Edgar and never knocked out on his feet like dos Anjos.

That's my argument, show me your hand...

31_UFC118_Penn.jpg
 
Yes, he was once the best and his legacy is secure. But that BJ is long gone. He should never go near an Octagon again.
 
He lost to a guy smaller than him 3 times. Nobody cares about wins over Joe Stevenson and Jens Pulver. Din Thomas. lol. Matt Serra. Ludwig. Such legends.

You may say those guys were good for that time but that just shows how shitty it was back then.
 
He lost to a guy smaller than him 3 times. Nobody cares about wins over Joe Stevenson and Jens Pulver. Din Thomas. lol. Matt Serra. Ludwig. Such legends.

You may say those guys were good for that time but that just shows how shitty it was back then.
Guess Sugar Ray Robinson isn't the greatest fighter to ever live then, probably not even top 5 by your estimation?

Yes, fighters get bigger, faster and stronger - but I can only rank you against who you're fighting, and those guys were top quality opponents at the time.

Tito Ortiz should probably be nowhere near an all-time list in that case, because Ken Shamrock, Vitor Belfort and Ryan Bader are probably his best wins.
 
Guess Sugar Ray Robinson isn't the greatest fighter to ever live then, probably not even top 5 by your estimation?

Yes, fighters get bigger, faster and stronger - but I can only rank you against who you're fighting, and those guys were top quality opponents at the time.

Tito Ortiz should probably be nowhere near an all-time list in that case, because Ken Shamrock, Vitor Belfort and Ryan Bader are probably his best wins.

You're damn right Tito Ortiz should not be on an all time list.

And I like this post from another thread:

BJ Penn is the example of dramatic performances making people believe that his wins are more significant. He has a pretty poor LW resume all things considered, but despite being where the competition was weakest at every phase of his LW dominance (Shooto was superior during his first run where he didn't win the belt, DREAM was infinitely superior during his second run where he did), he was the UFC Champion and the pioneer of the weight class. The winner tells the story, being a dominant UFC Champion and a pioneer carries a lot of weight with people not willing to look past the big letters.
 
155 doesn't have a clear GOAT in the way the other divisions do.

BJ would probably still be my first pick though. Nothing he does after the fact should really count against what he's already done.

*Anyone* who fights long enough past their prime would go on massive losing streaks.
 
You're damn right Tito Ortiz should not be on an all time list.

And I like this post from another thread:

BJ Penn is the example of dramatic performances making people believe that his wins are more significant. He has a pretty poor LW resume all things considered, but despite being where the competition was weakest at every phase of his LW dominance (Shooto was superior during his first run where he didn't win the belt, DREAM was infinitely superior during his second run where he did), he was the UFC Champion and the pioneer of the weight class. The winner tells the story, being a dominant UFC Champion and a pioneer carries a lot of weight with people not willing to look past the big letters.
That's a great post, I can acknowledge that.

My question would be who on earth were these Shooto fighters fighting? Who were the DREAM guys fighting?

The guys he beat were beating other top Lightweights themselves, his opponents were not cans. I know we snigger at the name Matt Serra, but Matt was a solid opponent at the time, wasn't out of shape, wasn't over the hill yet and was a genuinely formidable opponent. People just look past Florian and Sanchez and just laugh, these guys were on great runs. Sanchez hadn't even lost at Lightweight, and neither had Sean Sherk.

He beat guys in a way that others simply cannot replicate.

What Lightweights has Benson Henderson finished (and I love Bendo by the way)? Has BJ Penn ever been beaten from pillar to post like Frankie was against Gray, or how dos Anjos did to Pettis Has he been knocked out on his feet like RDA was?

All of these are a resounding, no!

It's like trying to claim Velasquez is better than Fedor. Momentary dominance doesn't out-weight a 8 year stretch of pure domination.
 
If Bj is overrated then that also makes Fedor overrated
 
Great thread. People love nothing more then to shit on great fighters from 10 years ago saying that they were never good. Not a BJ Penn fan but give credit where it's due
 
I'm still not a fan.

Poop!
 
The Diego fight was one of the most comprehensive shutout beatdowns in UFC history.

0 for whatever on takedowns. 8 (?) landed strikes the entire fight.
 
If Sean Sherk's hips weren't totally shot, he would have defeated Penn.
 
The game has evolved since BJ's heydays<mma4>

It's the same thing with Fedor and any other fighter{<redford}

Cherish those memories and move on, nothing to see here<13>
 
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