hypothetical question: Jones skates... is USADA back to zero?

[JosephDredd]

So what I've learned about USADA from some knowledgable people on Sherdog: there are over 200 PEDs, USADA can only test for 20 at a time, so the real way they catch people is by watching trends in the fighter's biological passport and narrowing in on potential PEDs based on the fighter's past results.

If Jones gets a pass because supplements and If he's actually on a PED he's probably going to change what he's on.

Does this mean all USADA's past bloodwork on him is essentially worthless and they're starting over?

 

[chitoortiz]

Some posters on here dimspace or something?

He knows his shit. Hopefully he gets in here on this, cause I'm curious myself.

 

[Arm Barbarian]

HIGHLY suspicious T / E ratios in the Cormier fight, hiding under cage from USADA previously to avoid testing.

Jon is as innocent as OJ simpson was. And he will probably skate just like he did too. lol

 

[chitoortiz]

HIGHLY suspicious T / E ratios in the Cormier fight, hiding under cage from USADA previously to avoid testing.

Jon is as innocent as OJ simpson was. And he will probably skate just like he did too. lol

If the PED don't fit, you must acquit.

 

[LUDELOW]

So what I've learned about USADA from some knowledgable people on Sherdog: there are over 200 PEDs, USADA can only test for 20 at a time, so the real way they catch people is by watching trends in the fighter's biological passport and narrowing in on potential PEDs based on the fighter's past results.

If Jones gets a pass because supplements and If he's actually on a PED he's probably going to change what he's on.

Does this mean all USADA's past bloodwork on him is essentially worthless and they're starting over?

no, his bloodwork is not worthless, his last positive test, seems to me targeted.

 

[WhitebeltXL]

I've been highly suspicious of Jones for a while now, But how can USADA ever be trusted again if they messed this entire thing up?

and that's ignoring the possibility they were paid off.

 

[JosephDredd]

Some posters on here dimspace or something?

He knows his shit. Hopefully he gets in here on this, cause I'm curious myself.

That sounds right. There are a few other people who are up on this stuff, but don't remember their names, either.

@dimspace @Eater of Souls

 

[chitoortiz]

That sounds right. There are a few other people who are up on this stuff, but don't remember their names, either.

@dimspace @Eater of Souls

Thanks brother.

dimspace was right. Good guy, knows his shit on this topic.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Not clear on the question in the OP. They can always go back and test old samples. Look at what happened to the Olympics this year or the Tour de France in the past.

Dimspace is more in touch with current regulations. I have been out of the circus for a while, and I like it that way.



I get fat working in research now.

 

[JosephDredd]

Not clear on the question in the OP. They can always go back and test old samples. Look at what happened to the Olympics this year or the Tour de France in the past.

I guess I was just wondering if bloodwork trends in the passport would be worthless for future deduction if a user changes the PED he's on. But I totally forgot they can just go back and try to nail him for other drugs.

Dimspace is more in touch with current regulations. I have been out of the circus for a while, and I like it that way.



I get fat working in research now.

lol I would, too. I'm always amazed at skinny, sedentary workers

 

[dim_]

Does this mean all USADA's past bloodwork on him is essentially worthless and they're starting over?

Bloodwork is never worthless.

Bear in mind, theres three aspects to the biological passport, but two that will be employed the most by USADA

Theres obviously the blood passport, that monitors blood date, but theres also the steroidal module which monitors data from urine tests over time looking at various hormone levels, (and its very possibly his positive was as a result of info from the steroidal module)

Thing is, this data is all used on an angoing basis, weve seen athletes charged with offences 1, 2, even 3 years after the fact based on Bio Passport data.


For example, an athlete could dope their entire career, and dope in such a way they even manage to fool the passport, never triggered any suspicion. , but then say they get ill, or injured, and for a few months stop doping, suddenly, that "normal" data can highlight that the previous 3 years data was in fact suspicious..

Sometimes (in fact quite often) the trigger in the passport isnt someone doping, its someone being clean which suddenly flags all their previous data.

So no, Bio Passport data is never worthless, all helps paint a picture.


(this is why there are a few National Federations that carry on testing for 6 months after retirement - A lot of people in the anti doping world - myself included - support random testing for up to a year after retirement.. an athlete retiring, stopping using ped's could actually provide the data that makes the rest of their data suddenly have red flags)

 

[Eater of Souls]

I guess I was just wondering if bloodwork trends in the passport would be worthless for future deduction if a user changes the PED he's on. But I totally forgot they can just go back and try to nail him for other drugs.

Yep. Now you can be fucked for decades past.

 

[JosephDredd]

Bloodwork is never worthless.

Bear in mind, theres three aspects to the biological passport, but two that will be employed the most by USADA

Theres obviously the blood passport, that monitors blood date, but theres also the steroidal module which monitors data from urine tests over time looking at various hormone levels, (and its very possibly his positive was as a result of info from the steroidal module)

Thing is, this data is all used on an angoing basis, weve seen athletes charged with offences 1, 2, even 3 years after the fact based on Bio Passport data.


For example, an athlete could dope their entire career, and dope in such a way they even manage to fool the passport, never triggered any suspicion. , but then say they get ill, or injured, and for a few months stop doping, suddenly, that "normal" data can highlight that the previous 3 years data was in fact suspicious..

Sometimes (in fact quite often) the trigger in the passport isnt someone doping, its someone being clean which suddenly flags all their previous data.

So no, Bio Passport data is never worthless, all helps paint a picture.


(this is why there are a few National Federations that carry on testing for 6 months after retirement - A lot of people in the anti doping world - myself included - support random testing for up to a year after retirement.. an athlete retiring, stopping using ped's could actually provide the data that makes the rest of their data suddenly have red flags)

Damn, I never even thought about getting caught by getting clean. That's amazing.

 

[dim_]

Damn, I never even thought about getting caught by getting clean. That's amazing.

well lets say for instance, blood work..

my natural haematocrit is lets say 39.

throughout my entire career i microdose EPO raising my hct to around 42-43 but low enough to be undetectable. I combine that with blood withdrawals/reinfusions but keep that undetectable by keeping any withdrawals/reinfusions down to about 500ml a time, and balance with plasma infusions to keep retic % in check.

throughout my career i manage to keep my blood passport in check, Off score hanging around 80-90 but never varying wildly, retics under 1.5% all the time, hct around 43%, and manage to avoid detection...

Then I retire and stop doping, or maybe someone at my gym gets caught with EPO and im worried about being caught... So i go clean...

Next two blood samples I give to USADA, suddenly my hct drops to 39%, my retics drop to 1%, off score of 60....

Bingo.. Usada catch me, those two "clean" samples bring up values that immediately make the years of dirty data get flagged


(thats a very simplified explanation - but yes, going clean can highlight previous dirty data as suspect)

 

[Eater of Souls]

@dimspace

Since you are more current with regulations than me (I am about ten years out of date, and happy about that) what is the deal with testing positive for metabolites? Example, when a fighter cuts, fat cells will release stored metabolites, such as THC, and can actually throw a "false positive," if you will, wherein an athlete has not used during the proscribed period, but the metabolites are still present during the critical testing window?

 

[dim_]

@dimspace

Since you are more current with regulations than me (I am about ten years out of date, and happy about that) what is the deal with testing positive for metabolites? Example, when a fighter cuts, fat cells will release stored metabolites, such as THC, and can actually throw a "false positive," if you will, wherein an athlete has not used during the proscribed period, but the metabolites are still present during the critical testing window?

varies dependant on substance, but on the whole, if a sample is positive, then they will do counter analysis, or confirmation analysis to make sure it is a positive. where possible they will use an alternate analysis method for the conformation test, so in theory, the likelehood that they will determine it to be regular use as oppose to "stored metabolytes"

To be honest, its only really an issue with threshold substances. For anything that has a "0" threshold it doesnt really matter so much as they are only looking for the presence of something, not "when" it got there.

with threshold substances like Cannabis its more of an issue but theyve ramped the thresholds up so high now, for instance, cannabis positives dropped from 500-600 a year to about 60 a year since the new thresholds put in place, so at higher threshold it really shouldnt be a problem.

 

[Eater of Souls]

Ah, ok, did not know they had raised the threshold.

Thanks.

 

[J. Bernie Cunningham]

well lets say for instance, blood work..

my natural haematocrit is lets say 39.

throughout my entire career i microdose EPO raising my hct to around 42-43 but low enough to be undetectable. I combine that with blood withdrawals/reinfusions but keep that undetectable by keeping any withdrawals/reinfusions down to about 500ml a time, and balance with plasma infusions to keep retic % in check.

throughout my career i manage to keep my blood passport in check, Off score hanging around 80-90 but never varying wildly, retics under 1.5% all the time, hct around 43%, and manage to avoid detection...

Then I retire and stop doping, or maybe someone at my gym gets caught with EPO and im worried about being caught... So i go clean...

Next two blood samples I give to USADA, suddenly my hct drops to 39%, my retics drop to 1%, off score of 60....

Bingo.. Usada catch me, those two "clean" samples bring up values that immediately make the years of dirty data get flagged


(thats a very simplified explanation - but yes, going clean can highlight previous dirty data as suspect)

Few questions if you got the time;

Is there currently a system where you can be failed for sudden irregularities in the passport? Because from a legal standpoint it can be argued both that USADA is essentially confirming their inability to catch the cheating as it happens, and that they're admitting they let a doper compete. I can't imagine that holding up in a thorough judicial challenge if someone hires the right attorneys.

I like the idea though, how well established is this so far and how long until we start seeing it become effective?

 

[mjmj]

I've been highly suspicious of Jones for a while now, But how can USADA ever be trusted again if they messed this entire thing up?

and that's ignoring the possibility they were paid off.

What are you suggesting they messed up? If it’s been proven in the lab that the substance he tested positive for came from a source that shouldn’t have contained it, how is that messing up? Some people seem to be under the impression the USADA just takes your word for it when someone makes the “tainted supplement” claim. If they independently obtain the suspect supplement, and it tests positive for something it’s not supposed to contain, the blame falls solely on the company making the shit.

And to suggest the USADA would risk its entire existence just to cover for one MMA fighter that most of America has never heard of is just plain dumb.

 

[Haj01]

Hypothetical question - if Jon Jones goes ice skating and he snorts some white stuff there. He says it's just snow/ice from the rink. But is it actually cocaine?