[Malthian]

And 'people have been cutting weight forever' is a very valid argument in the fact that for decades wrestlers, boxers, judokas etc. have been part of a system that works. A fighter gassing because he cuts too much is his own problem and his own decision. And its been that way for the longest time. He is to blame and no one else. Renan Barao has trouble with his performance after cutting. He should move up. Johny Hendricks cuts more than 20 lbs. He makes weight and performs admirably. He should stay where he is. Chael Sonnen has said hes had to cut 20 lbs. He did it every single time and despite his faults has never had cardio issues.

There are fighters who cut and rehydrate (with IV's) and are ok to perform and have little issues doing it again. There's a guy at my gym who is 5'6 and a short reach and walks around between 170 and 180. He cuts down to lightweight and rehydrates with an IV. Asking a guy like him to fight at 170 considering his body size would be unfair and by everyone's admission not as competitive.

Any person suffering from a weight cut is at fault. Not the rules or regulations. Weight cutting is a fighter's responsibility and prerogative and if he does it right every single time, no one has the right to tell him otherwise.

It's a valid argument IF IT WAS TRUE. It's not.

Judo is same day weigh in 1 hour before competition. They are governed under WADA and nobody does extreme cuts or is allowed to use IV's.

Wrestling has moved away from extreme cuts. They have hydration limits at the high school and collegiate levels. They are also governed under WADA in international competition (Olympic). Nobody uses IV's in high school or NCAA because nobody cuts that much anymore due to month long hydration tests. And nobody is allowed to do it on the international competitive level due to WADA.

Amateur boxing also falls under WADA (Olympic and international). They are not allowed to use IV's.

As it stands now, of the three examples you've given only Professional Boxing and Professional MMA allow IV's and extreme weight cutting. And in the case of boxing, the boxers spend their entire careers NOT using IV's to make weight prior to going Pro.

If they instituted IV bans in professional boxing, the boxers would hardly notice. They'd simply return to the practices they grew up with... IE, WADA/international competition.

The institution of IV bans in the UFC isn't like some sort of doomsday scenario. What you'll see is that guys who gas in the 3rd will simply have to adjust their body mass to reduce the water cut, or they'll get better at orally rehydrating, or they'll change weight classes.

There will be a short adjustment period and then it's back to business as usual.

 

[Chappi]

Rehydrating with an IV is cheating anyway even if they all do it.
If someone rehydrates with an IV they are not fighting naturally and we might as well allow all unnatural ways of getting an edge.

 

[AliBagaooteenov]

I dont get fans like you, you want to watch a sport and be all involved and shit. But when your faveorite fighter gets popped for PED;s, now you think rules are bad for the sport.


If the rule book says you have to eat your shit before a fight and you dont like it, then dont get involved and live your life happily without eating shit.

Just because people have been doing stupid stuff since the birth of jesus, doesnt mean they should continue doing stupid shit untill the end of time.

Personally idc i know most athletes are PEDs i never said i care if they get caught

 

[TheNinja]

The IV ban is stupid. I remember after the weigh ins one time I was walking around the hotel and Ray Longo was walking around the hotel with one of his fighters to get some food and stuff and the fighter was walking around with an IV bag hanging from one of those hospital IV bag holders with the IV in his arm. It was pretty friggin funny to just see this fighter walking around with an IV in.

 

[Inashikacho]

I know that and it can be understood that you are afraid to face a bigger guy, most people get scared by that. But that also shows signs about a schoolyard-bully mentality, you always need to be the bigger fish because otherwise you couldnt get your big fish money out of beating the smaller people.

I really don't think that the problem is guys wanting to face other guys who are smaller than them. It's about fighting guys who more evenly match you in size, instead of fighting guys at a competitive disadvantage where the size discrepancy would frequently look like this:

I know they have to get their money to keep their families alive, but being the bigger guy is not what martial arts is about. But we also know how that is in real life, and especially in this sport, where in the history of the UFC only one champion has went up a weight division to challenge for the belt and for that he is bigger than the hero of time.

This is professional mma, not the amateur level where guys don't expect to be paid. Martial arts with money involved will never be pure simply because the fighters have to get as much as they can out of this sport (a sport that gives back very little compensation at the high levels relative to other individual sports like boxing, tennis, golf, etc...) while they are young and healthy. It would be incredibly dumb and financially irresponsible for a guy like Johnny Hendricks for example, to move up to middle weight and fight monsters like Yoel Romero, Luke Rockhold, Jacare, and Chris Weidman, the type of guys who probably out weigh him on fight night by over 30lbs on fight night and have extreme height and reach advantages over him. Matching him up with these guys would not be the least bit competitive, and he would lose way more fights than he would win at that weight class, costing him hundreds of thousands of dollars in his short fighting career that he can't afford to lose.

Penn would have a better overall legacy in the sport, similar to GSP, if he stayed at 155 after losing to GSP the first time and dominated there for as long as he could. Instead, he got bored at 155 and wound up getting his ass kicked multiple times and staining his record with L's when he didn't need to. You may look at him as a hero, which fine, but his losses vs Nick Diaz, Rory Macdonald, GSP 2, Matt Hughes 2, were embarrassing and his fight with Lyoto Machida was downright dumb. If he replaced those L's with wins over light weights not named Frankie Edgar, he'd be richer man and have a better legacy to look back on.

You may think weight cutting is cowardly, but it is the nature of combat sports. I do think some guys used to or currently go to extreme sometimes and need to move up (ie:Rumble, Renan Barao), but for the most part it allows guys to avoid fighting at a competitive disadvantage. The only way I'd agree with this IV ban is if 2-3 lbs is added to every weight class to offset the problems caused for the fighters by the ban (ie: 145 becomes 147, 155 becomes 157, 170 becomes 173, etc...).

Rehydrating with an IV is cheating anyway even if they all do it.
If someone rehydrates with an IV they are not fighting naturally and we might as well allow all unnatural ways of getting an edge.

If re-hydrating with an IV is supposedly not as effective as doing it orally, according to USADA, what does it matter? The fluids in an IV aren't banned substances or performance enhancing at all, so I don't understand how the fighters get an edge in a fight from it?

 

[RoscoeRufus]

I think there will be a lot of fighters going up in weight, and alotta dehydration-related KOs in the next year or so ...

between this, and the Reebok fiasco, UFC could likely be in store for a clusterfuck in 2016.

 

[dmwalking]

Why stop there? If fighter health isn't an issue, weapons are the way to go if you want real excitement. There's a reason the Roman's used weapons (and wild animals) in their gladiator games.

Instead of weight divisions you could have weapon divisions - sword, spear, knife, maybe even a firearms division (sort of like a western show-down) if you can figure out how to keep the spectators from getting killed).

Lets face it, humans have evolved to use weapons in our fighting (we'd still be tiger kibble without weapons), this unarmed stuff is as arbitrarily restricted as banning PED's and IV's.

Where did your critical thinking skills go? How is permitting certain performance enhancers a total disregard for fighter safety? Use your brain kid.

Using an IV is hardly the same thing as using a gladius. Try again. Actually don't. I feel like you'd say something even dumber.

 

[CanardRoti]

that's some late stoppage

 

[Cooliox]

a professional shouldn't make these mistakes

 

[HeexX]

I completely agree with this. Brunson cut down from 205. If he decides to fight at 205 he will be fighting A lot of heavier people. 185 is logical for him but that's a 20 pound gap. Slide in a 195lb division and you'd see a lot of MW and LHW meeting at a common ground. It's a win for the fans, and it'd be a win for the people who complain about weight cutting.
Only problem is that the MW and LHW would become a bit watered down.

Yup, literally the only real problem I see. Then again more fighters would probably look a lot better if they didn't have to fight a day after they dehydrated themselves, sometimes to extreme limits.

 

[Cooliox]

It's a valid argument IF IT WAS TRUE. It's not.

Judo is same day weigh in 1 hour before competition. They are governed under WADA and nobody does extreme cuts or is allowed to use IV's.

Wrestling has moved away from extreme cuts. They have hydration limits at the high school and collegiate levels. They are also governed under WADA in international competition (Olympic). Nobody uses IV's in high school or NCAA because nobody cuts that much anymore due to month long hydration tests. And nobody is allowed to do it on the international competitive level due to WADA.

Amateur boxing also falls under WADA (Olympic and international). They are not allowed to use IV's.

As it stands now, of the three examples you've given only Professional Boxing and Professional MMA allow IV's and extreme weight cutting. And in the case of boxing, the boxers spend their entire careers NOT using IV's to make weight prior to going Pro.

If they instituted IV bans in professional boxing, the boxers would hardly notice. They'd simply return to the practices they grew up with... IE, WADA/international competition.

The institution of IV bans in the UFC isn't like some sort of doomsday scenario. What you'll see is that guys who gas in the 3rd will simply have to adjust their body mass to reduce the water cut, or they'll get better at orally rehydrating, or they'll change weight classes.

There will be a short adjustment period and then it's back to business as usual.

yeap.

 

[stillm93]

I think there will be a lot of fighters going up in weight, and alotta dehydration-related KOs in the next year or so ...

between this, and the Reebok fiasco, UFC could likely be in store for a clusterfuck in 2016.

Id like to see some de-hydration related KOs, I imagine they would look brutal. Don't want to see fighters having long lasting brain-trama tho as a result. I'd like to see a bunch of fighters move up in weight, I think overtime there wouldn't be as much extreme weight discrepancies. Also, I think the IV ban is good w/ conjunction to the drug testing procedures that seem to be a lot more effective: more effective drug testing will lead more users to find alternative methods to cheat ala blood doping

 

[georgejjr]

Where did your critical thinking skills go? How is permitting certain performance enhancers a total disregard for fighter safety? Use your brain kid.

Using an IV is hardly the same thing as using a gladius. Try again. Actually don't. I feel like you'd say something even dumber.

Proving once again that personal insults are a sure sign of not having a real argument.

Most (though not all) PED's are harmful to both the user, and the opponent who's about to be punched by an enhanced puncher. TRT definitely falls into the latter category.

And using an IV encourages fighters to go deeper into dehydration, knowing they'll be able to recover. Unfortunately the cut time itself contributes to both kidney and brain damage. Google the Mayo clinic's reports on dehydration.

 

[MasterNinjaRat]

I really don't think that the problem is guys wanting to face other guys who are smaller than them. It's about fighting guys who more evenly match you in size, instead of fighting guys at a competitive disadvantage where the size discrepancy would frequently look like this:

This is professional mma, not the amateur level where guys don't expect to be paid. Martial arts with money involved will never be pure simply because the fighters have to get as much as they can out of this sport (a sport that gives back very little compensation at the high levels relative to other individual sports like boxing, tennis, golf, etc...) while they are young and healthy. It would be incredibly dumb and financially irresponsible for a guy like Johnny Hendricks for example, to move up to middle weight and fight monsters like Yoel Romero, Luke Rockhold, Jacare, and Chris Weidman, the type of guys who probably out weigh him on fight night by over 30lbs on fight night and have extreme height and reach advantages over him. Matching him up with these guys would not be the least bit competitive, and he would lose way more fights than he would win at that weight class, costing him hundreds of thousands of dollars in his short fighting career that he can't afford to lose.

Penn would have a better overall legacy in the sport, similar to GSP, if he stayed at 155 after losing to GSP the first time and dominated there for as long as he could. Instead, he got bored at 155 and wound up getting his ass kicked multiple times and staining his record with L's when he didn't need to. You may look at him as a hero, which fine, but his losses vs Nick Diaz, Rory Macdonald, GSP 2, Matt Hughes 2, were embarrassing and his fight with Lyoto Machida was downright dumb. If he replaced those L's with wins over light weights not named Frankie Edgar, he'd be richer man and have a better legacy to look back on.

You may think weight cutting is cowardly, but it is the nature of combat sports. I do think some guys used to or currently go to extreme sometimes and need to move up (ie:Rumble, Renan Barao), but for the most part it allows guys to avoid fighting at a competitive disadvantage. The only way I'd agree with this IV ban is if 2-3 lbs is added to every weight class to offset the problems caused for the fighters by the ban (ie: 145 becomes 147, 155 becomes 157, 170 becomes 173, etc...).



If re-hydrating with an IV is supposedly not as effective as doing it orally, according to USADA, what does it matter? The fluids in an IV aren't banned substances or performance enhancing at all, so I don't understand how the fighters get an edge in a fight from it?

IDK if you are basically saying that staying in WW, Johny Hendricks makes more cash, and therefore should stay. I agree. Of course nobody wants to be at a competitive disadvantage but thats what i hope with the IV ban, everybody in their own division, the people that cut weight are not as fresh as their opponent who didnt cut weight. Its just a choice, like weight cutting is now, but with IV ban the 20 pound cut comes with a price.
''But it will be dangerous'' Maybe, but i think its way more dangerous to let these guys cut 30 pounds and act like its ok. I mean look at Conor before Siver and Mendes, he looks sickening. AND then he sleeps through the night, wakes up like 170 and go fight at ''145''. How is that not an edge during the fight night?

And Penn will always be a legend he is because he made an exeption in the rule: ''MMA fighter dont move up'' and he was always down to fight anybody. IDK, maybe you like GSP better but BJ Penn's legacy is more fascinating to me.

 

[Reissue]

"people have been cutting weight forever," is also a stupid argument.

I agree that it is a weak argument. But considering the contextual implications it carries it actually is a valid one while nothing beats the "it' cowardly"-argument on the weak sauce scale.

One could say "i want the sport to be more pure, so i don't approve weightcutting" but calling it cowardly is borderline psychotic.

I always have the feeling people who talk that way are either compensating or very limited in their language so that they can't word their opinion in a more agreeable and less infantil way.

 

[Reissue]

Double post. Sorry. Crappy mobile internet.

If one wants to delete, feel free and you are welcome.

 

[dim_]

[Yt]h7Lo1dtwka8[/MEDIA]

So hang on a minute...

Birchak spends 2 minutes telling us how bad the IV ban is, how fighters will be unhydrated, will get knocked out, how you can oral rehydrate, how its bad bad bad..

ANd then tries to sell us the oral re-hydrating product he uses.

Yeah.. ok.

 

[skombolis]

So once we start seeing good fighters decline because of silly things like TRT bans and IV bans and we start getting slop fests and gas fests, will we change our tune about PEDs?

Personally, I want TRT Vitor, Erick Silva, Hendo. I want IV Aldo. But I guess I'm the only one.

I would be willing to bet two guys that cycled off PEDs and went through a major weight cut and then a drastic re-hydration in time to fight one day later put on a worse performance then two guys fighting naturally at their natural weight. Or at minimum it can't be much different. And a lot less bullshit with option 2.

The problem is these fighters will resist and try to cheat and game the system and we will end up losing some fighters and getting some bad fights. But eventually they won't have any choice. And we will actually see guys that fight more than a round without having to take half the round off. I don't want to single out Hendrix but the round he lost his championship belt in was a fucking disgrace. It would be so much easier for everyone if nobody was drastically cutting weight or on PEDs. How realistic that is that rules and testing can be strict enough and good enough to ensure that? I don't know.

 

[clift]

From what I've read in this thread it appears there should never be a Frankie Edgar. The guy didn't cut weight at all and still became champ of one of the toughest divisions. There are a lot of LHW's who really should be HW's.. they would gas less and they'd be fighting other big guys. I support the IV ban just because I think it will reduce the frequency at which we see guys like Rumble fighting at a ridiculous weight... but at the same time realize that cutting weight isn't going away and I'm scared someone will get seriously injured. PED's are a problem but people dying is a whole lot worst. It will be a learning curve and for sure some guys will look like a shell of their former selves but it's that in between period where everyone is figured it out that's going to be a scare for me. Add some weight divisions and ban IV's... it should be done all at the same time. At least they are giving guys the time to do a test cut and figure out if they can make weight without having them find out in the octagon.

 

[Rebel_LioN]

Barao is also a candidate for mandatory move up a weight class. Dudes taken some serious damage already getting thrashed by TJ all those rounds. Cormier said on a broadcast he may even be damages goods at this point.

Yikes