2018 PotWR Round 5: The General Election

[Andy Capp]

@Bald1 I like you, but you like @irish_thug , suffer, I think, from what I call "Canadian conservative syndrome." You think being on the right is a reasonable option in the US because it is a reasonable option in Canada.

This is an excellent point. Applies to @Devout Pessimist, too.There is a huge difference between the GOP and other right-wing parties (and for that matter, the American left is quite different from the Canadian left). I've said many times that a reality-grounded, non-corrupt right-wing party isn't a theoretical impossibility; it's just something that we don't happen to have in America. There are a lot of reasons for that, but I think the biggest one is the combination of a "liberal media" CT and the existence of an alternate media system.

A similar dynamic applies to immigration or refugee discussions with a different set of posters. Looks very much like some Western European countries have a legitimate problem, but America is exceptionally good at integrating immigrants and doesn't have the same numbers either.

Sadly, the Conservative party in Canada is headed more in the direction of the Republican party rather than less, especially over the last few years. It started with Harper learning Dubya's trick of constantly campaigning whether there was an election coming or not. That kept him in office well past his best by date. In the wake of his defeat to another Trudeau, a small but dedicated corps of Canadian consumers of American alt-right media started to work on the grassroots through social media and ever since it's been growing by leaps and bounds. It's pretty sickening to watch and there doesn't appear to be any end in sight.

As evidence, I submit a discussion I had with @Devout Pessimist in which he was forced to admit that as much as he hates Trudeau and wants to see him voted out of office asap, it has nothing to do with his job performance, which, although it may be deserving of some criticism, has been reasonably good for a first term PM, if you're being objective. I'm not saying this is anything new on the part of Devout Pessimist. I'm not discounting legitimate criticisms of the Trudeau government. But there is a clear campaign in Canada to do to him what was done to Hillary Clinton (again legitimate criticisms of her aside). Anyway, the Conservatives have caught on to the use of populism to whip up negative emotions here thanks to Trump's success and now they are working day and night on it. It was my biggest concern when he got elected and it was warranted.

 

[Trotsky]

Sadly, the Conservative party in Canada is headed more in the direction of the Republican party rather than less, especially over the last few years. It started with Harper learning Dubya's trick of constantly campaigning whether there was an election coming or not. That kept him in office well past his best by date. In the wake of his defeat to another Trudeau, a small but dedicated corps of Canadian consumers of American alt-right media started to work on the grassroots through social media and ever since it's been growing by leaps and bounds. It's pretty sickening to watch and there doesn't appear to be any end in sight.

As evidence, I submit a discussion I had with @Devout Pessimist in which he was forced to admit that as much as he hates Trudeau and wants to see him voted out of office asap, it has nothing to do with his job performance, which, although it may be deserving of some criticism, has been reasonably good for a first term PM, if you're being objective. I'm not saying this is anything new on the part of Devout Pessimist. I'm not discounting legitimate criticisms of the Trudeau government. But there is a clear campaign in Canada to do to him what was done to Hillary Clinton (again legitimate criticisms of her aside). Anyway, the Conservatives have caught on to the use of populism to whip up negative emotions here thanks to Trump's success and now they are working day and night on it. It was my biggest concern when he got elected and it was warranted.

Yeah, this has been the same experience I've had with every Canadian conservative on this board re Trudeau: they hate (hate) him purely on the basis that he says nice things about minorities, but they don't posit any (any) substantive disagreements with his policies. And, in proffering any improvements to his platform, they generally want to see him move further left economically, which is just lol-worthy considering voting him out would push the country in the opposite direction.

It really goes to show that, or conservatives, it's all identity politics and immigration. That's it.

 

[Slick_36]

Yeah, this has been the same experience I've had with every Canadian conservative on this board re Trudeau: they hate (hate) him purely on the basis that he says nice things about minorities, but they don't posit any (any) substantive disagreements with his policies. And, in proffering any improvements to his platform, they generally want to see him move further left economically, which is just lol-worthy considering voting him out would push the country in the opposite direction.

It really goes to show that, or conservatives, it's all identity politics and immigration. That's it.

Was it just me or did the immigration issue seem to go away during Obama's adminstration only to become a problem again right as Trump announced his candidacy? I remember hearing about illegals being a problem on the border during Bush's last term, but even at a young age I kind of realized it was more sensationalism than anything and I was in rural Texas where it was talked about more. Didn't hear a word about it from anyone during Obama's whole run, then Trump runs on it and it's suddenly the biggest problem the US or Canada faces.

What changed?

 

[Andy Capp]

Yeah, this has been the same experience I've had with every Canadian conservative on this board re Trudeau: they hate (hate) him purely on the basis that he says nice things about minorities, but they don't posit any (any) substantive disagreements with his policies. And, in proffering any improvements to his platform, they generally want to see him move further left economically, which is just lol-worthy considering voting him out would push the country in the opposite direction.

It really goes to show that, or conservatives, it's all identity politics and immigration. That's it.

Again, there are legitimate criticisms that can be laid at his feet. But there are great successes to which he can lay claim also. I doubt anyone could have done better against Trump in the NAFTA renegotiation, for example. I doubt party could have done better (for a country the size of Canada, and given political and economic realities in this country) in its condemnation of the Saudi Arabian government, consistently and regularly over the last few years.

Aside, the smallest teensiest part of my brain that houses what little CT I have in me says the Russians and/or the Saudis have something to do with the import of American alt-right-ism into Canada even if it's mostly driven by home grown social media bubbles.

 

[Trotsky]

Was it just me or did the immigration issue seem to go away during Obama's adminstration only to become a problem again right as Trump announced his candidacy? I remember hearing about illegals being a problem on the border during Bush's last term, but even at a young age I kind of realized it was more sensationalism than anything and I was in rural Texas where it was talked about more. Didn't hear a word about it from anyone during Obama's whole run, then Trump runs on it and it's suddenly the biggest problem the US or Canada faces.

What changed?

Well, Obama was the most "pro-borders" president perhaps of all-time, but certainly since WWII. And, given that undocumented migration had hit negative levels for all eight of his years in office and border removals had reached all-time highs, undocumented immigration was/is *objectively* not an issue. Republicans had used it to fear monger and rally support since their actual policies were disastrous during GWB's terms. But by the time of the 2016 election, the GOP leadership was actually posturing to take a more pro-immigrant party line. And then Trump happened.

Truthfully, Republicans might have been able to short-circuit Trump by simply stating what was factually true: illegal immigration was and is not a problem in any meaningful way. But doing that would contradict their own lies over the past decade.

 

[Slick_36]

Well, Obama was the most "pro-borders" president perhaps of all-time, but certainly since WWII. And, given that undocumented migration had hit negative levels for all eight of his years in office and border removals had reached all-time highs, undocumented immigration was/is *objectively* not an issue. Republicans had used it to fear monger and rally support since their actual policies were disastrous during GWB's terms. But by the time of the 2016 election, the GOP leadership was actually posturing to take a more pro-immigrant party line. And then Trump happened.

Truthfully, Republicans might have been able to short-circuit Trump by simply stating what was factually true: illegal immigration was and is not a problem in any meaningful way. But doing that would contradict their own lies over the past decade.

Yeah you would think if it was a problem then Obama's adminstration would have been the time for us to see just how bad it was. It was a total non-issue though. It's still bizzare to me that it caught on with such fire. I mean we literally just sent the military to the border.

It's kind of like America is trying to find a new identity and no one is really sure what it is anymore. It certainly isn't what I was told it was growing up.

 

[luckyshot]

Concession Speech

As the vote margin has not changed appreciably in almost 72 hours, it is time to recognize that, for all intents and purposes, the 2018 PotWR election is over.

I would like to thank every one of my voters. Winning two out of three rounds of this election proved that you are tremendously loyal. Your support has been amazing. I’m sorry I couldn’t get us across the finish line.

Thank you to the Sanity team and my VP @Fawlty for the incredible work you put in. I would have gotten nowhere without you.

Thank you to @Lead for being the host with the most.

Thank you to all the candidates for good times, good laughs, plotting and scheming, and general hijinx. We put ourselves out there for the entertainment of the people and all contributed to this election.

Ultimately, this was not a campaign that we lost, but a campaign that @Cubo de Sangre won. All credit goes to him and his team.

Cogratulations PotWR-elect @Cubo de Sangre and VP-elect @Gutter Chris . Good luck with the Sticky threads.

At the end of the day, WR, we are all one; without each other, we’d just be shouting at the wind.

If you need me, I’ll be on @Clippy Island.

Cheers,

luckyshot

 

[Jack V Savage]

Yeah, this has been the same experience I've had with every Canadian conservative on this board re Trudeau: they hate (hate) him purely on the basis that he says nice things about minorities, but they don't posit any (any) substantive disagreements with his policies. And, in proffering any improvements to his platform, they generally want to see him move further left economically, which is just lol-worthy considering voting him out would push the country in the opposite direction.

It really goes to show that, or conservatives, it's all identity politics and immigration. That's it.

And their immigration concerns are also related to identity politics.

Was it just me or did the immigration issue seem to go away during Obama's adminstration only to become a problem again right as Trump announced his candidacy? I remember hearing about illegals being a problem on the border during Bush's last term, but even at a young age I kind of realized it was more sensationalism than anything and I was in rural Texas where it was talked about more. Didn't hear a word about it from anyone during Obama's whole run, then Trump runs on it and it's suddenly the biggest problem the US or Canada faces.

What changed?

Illegal immigration was legitimately an issue in the '90s and '00s. Hasn't been one since, though. I think Obama's election in 2012 was a big factor, though. It freaked Republicans the fuck out to win the white vote by a clear margin and still lose, especially as projections called for a decreasingly white electorate. Republicans were either buying into the wacky theory that partisan affiliation is genetically determined or were thinking that their rejection by minorities was caused by their own approach. People in the latter group decided that the party needed to change to reach out to Latino voters, who they thought they could win. People in the former group decided that they needed to slam the door on immigration, make it harder for minorities to vote, and turn back the clock on demographics. The former group winning is what turned immigration into Issue No. 1 for the right.

 

[Slick_36]

No offense @luckyshot but you lost that because of votes against you, not for your opponent. And I don't mean that you did anything to deserve that.

 

[Trotsky]

And their immigration concerns are also related to identity politics.

Partially, but not wholly.

For instance, if Trudeau was pro-immigrant and respecting other cultures but acted like Chris Christie, calling reporters cucks and being misogynistic, his support among those identity political types would certainly improve, even if his stance on immigrants remained unchanged.

The hyper-masculine strongman fetish is considerable imo.

 

[Gutter Chris]

Concession Speech

As the vote margin has not changed appreciably in almost 72 hours, it is time to recognize that, for all intents and purposes, the 2018 PotWR election is over.

I would like to thank every one of my voters. Winning two out of three rounds of this election proved that I have the most loyal voters. Your support has been amazing. I’m sorry I couldn’t get us across the finish line.

Thank you to the Sanity team for the incredible work you put in. I would have gotten nowhere without you.

Thank you to @Lead for being the host with the most.

Thank you to all the candidates for good times, good laughs, plotting and scheming, and general hijinx. We put ourselves out there for the entertainment of the people and all contributed to this election.

Ultimately, this was not a campaign that we lost, but a campaign that @Cubo de Sangre won. All credit goes to him and his team.

Cogratulations PotWR-elect @Cubo de Sangre and VP-elect @Gutter Chris . Good luck with the Sticky threads.

At the end of the day, WR, we are all one; without each other, we’d all just be shouting at the wind.

If you need me, I’ll be on @Clippy Island.

Cheers,

luckyshot

You would have made a fine president and under different circumstances I would have voted for you. I was with cubo from the get go when I decided not to run and to join him

You ran a good campaign and this team had to dig deep to pull off the win. We have never had more sympathy for real politicians as we had when trying to figure out how to win.

Perhaps it will be you vs me next year and we can do it all over again

 

[Jack V Savage]

Partially, but not wholly.

For instance, if Trudeau was pro-immigrant and respecting other cultures but acted like Chris Christie, calling reporters cucks and being misogynistic, his support among those identity political types would certainly improve, even if his stance on immigrants remained unchanged.

The hyper-masculine strongman fetish is considerable imo.

It's theoretically possible for immigration not to get swallowed up in the identity-politics blob, but in fact, it is.

 

[Gutter Chris]

@Cubo de Sangre

Ya did it buddy

 

[Trotsky]

It's theoretically possible for immigration not to get swallowed up in the identity-politics blob, but in fact, it is.

Purely in terms of morbid curiosity, I would be very interested in seeing how a leftist strongman type would really fare in the United States or Canada. Someone like Leon Trotsky, Hugo Chavez, or Vladimir Lenin: super manly and charismatic, and who uses machismo rhetoric (such as Trotsky's "introduce a fascist's head to the pavement" quote), but who champions empathy and solidarity. I wonder how effective right-wing smears would be at fear mongering about that type of wannabe autocrat, since criticism of Obama was always tinged with the implication that he was a sissy man.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Purely in terms of morbid curiosity, I would be very interested in seeing how a leftist strongman type would really fare in the United States or Canada. Someone like Leon Trotsky, Hugo Chavez, or Vladimir Lenin: super manly and charismatic, and who uses machismo rhetoric (such as Trotsky's "introduce a fascist's head to the pavement" quote), but who champions empathy and solidarity. I wonder how effective right-wing smears would be at fear mongering about that type of wannabe autocrat, since criticism of Obama was always tinged with the implication that he was a sissy man.

I think that kind of guy would have a better chance in a Republican primary than a Democratic one. The bases are so different, and they live in different media environments. Someone whose policy ideas are rejected by academics cannot win a Democratic primary (this is why the people saying that Avenatti had a chance were showing a poor understanding of the base), while Republican base voters don't care about policy or whether candidates actually know what they're talking about.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Ultimately, this was not a campaign that we lost, but a campaign that @Cubo de Sangre won. All credit goes to him and his team.

Thanks, and agreed. Your efforts validated my decision to dump so much work into the campaign before anyone even realized the election was coming. I threw everything but the kitchen sink at this because if I was going down it wasn't going to be through lack of effort. Great job on your part and if you run next year you'll surely be the favorite.

@Cubo de Sangre

Ya did it buddy

We sure did.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

Concession Speech

As the vote margin has not changed appreciably in almost 72 hours, it is time to recognize that, for all intents and purposes, the 2018 PotWR election is over.

I would like to thank every one of my voters. Winning two out of three rounds of this election proved that I have the most loyal voters. Your support has been amazing. I’m sorry I couldn’t get us across the finish line.

Thank you to the Sanity team for the incredible work you put in. I would have gotten nowhere without you.

Thank you to @Lead for being the host with the most.

Thank you to all the candidates for good times, good laughs, plotting and scheming, and general hijinx. We put ourselves out there for the entertainment of the people and all contributed to this election.

Ultimately, this was not a campaign that we lost, but a campaign that @Cubo de Sangre won. All credit goes to him and his team.

Cogratulations PotWR-elect @Cubo de Sangre and VP-elect @Gutter Chris . Good luck with the Sticky threads.

At the end of the day, WR, we are all one; without each other, we’d all just be shouting at the wind.

If you need me, I’ll be on @Clippy Island.

Cheers,

luckyshot

 

[Trotsky]

I think that kind of guy would have a better chance in a Republican primary than a Democratic one. The bases are so different, and they live in different media environments. Someone whose policy ideas are rejected by academics cannot win a Democratic primary (this is why the people saying that Avenatti had a chance were showing a poor understanding of the base), while Republican base voters don't care about policy or whether candidates actually know what they're talking about.

Honestly, I think you overestimate the Democratic base in the social media era. It's not like it used to be, where money and strategic support by interest groups determine who wins out. The Democratic base is more sophisticated and policy-oriented than the Republican base, sure, but 90% of its voters are still pretty uninformed and will bite on populism imo.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

@Cubo de Sangre @Gutter Chris

 

[Jack V Savage]

Honestly, I think you overestimate the Democratic base in the social media era. It's not like it used to be, where money and strategic support by interest groups determine who wins out. The Democratic base is more sophisticated and policy-oriented than the Republican base, sure, but 90% of its voters are still pretty uninformed and will bite on populism imo.

It's not that the base is super well-informed, it's that they still take cues from mainstream rather than hackish sources. Bernie ran into some trouble there (some of his proposals didn't add up), and I think paid a price. And he's not particularly bad on that kind of thing--just not quite up to the expected standard.