2017 World Jiu Jitsu Championships Prediction Thread

[Balto]

As opposed to judo, which desperately tries to stay competitive in securing Olympic mass viewership, meaning that stalling tactics have to be punished at all costs.

Pre-Olympic Judo had much more stalling, right? I can't remember exactly, but I think I've heard that before.

Something about 20 min matches, only scores were waza-ari and ippon, ippon was much harder to score, lots of defensive grip fighting, etc.

I saw Rhadi Ferguson weigh in on FB about the rules. He said that he thinks BJJ will ultimately merge into Judo if you start enforcing stalling the same way. They really did start from the same place, and the main divergence was an early dispute over the rules with a small group from Brazil. If we bring the rules back together, we may end up with the same sport again.

 

[waiguoren]

Since I spent an outlandish amount of time watching all the absolute division matches, I guess I should offer my thoughts as a guy who doesn't follow the sport very closely.

• Size and strength still matter. A lot. I mean, I know this from my own training but I guess there's always the hope that some little guy will find the magic solution. Rice/Poupolo (sp?) and Buchecha/Erbeth were the only two matches in which the stronger guy lost.
  
• Never heard of that Panza guy before but his guard is nuts and seemingly immune to the O/U pass. I figure if Faria can't pass him with it, no one can.
  
• Buchecha is a ridiculous athlete. Well, I guess we already knew this.
• Maybe BJJ should address passivity on the feet. Lo's constant backing up out of bounds against Rocha was pretty absurd.
• Tanner Rice is really good.
  
• Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but why the hell was Erbeth given 2 points vs. Rice? Rice shot a high crotch, realized Erbeth was an immovable boulder, and sat to guard. That seems like a point-neutral sequence of events.

 

[Kenny from MD]

There is a rule about initiating a takedown, and then ending up on bottom, counting as a takedown against you. It happened to Cyborg against (I think) Aly, when he snapped him down to all fours, went for the armlock and was dumped over. The exception is supposed to be if you initiate a clear pull to guard, which I believe Tanner did, and the refs made a terrible call. I won't watch that match again, because it pisses me off too much.

 

[DaGenius]

Since I spent an outlandish amount of time watching all the absolute division matches, I guess I should offer my thoughts as a guy who doesn't follow the sport very closely.

• Size and strength still matter. A lot. I mean, I know this from my own training but I guess there's always the hope that some little guy will find the magic solution. Rice/Poupolo (sp?) and Buchecha/Erbeth were the only two matches in which the stronger guy lost.
  
• Never heard of that Panza guy before but his guard is nuts and seemingly immune to the O/U pass. I figure if Faria can't pass him with it, no one can.
  
• Buchecha is a ridiculous athlete. Well, I guess we already knew this.
• Maybe BJJ should address passivity on the feet. Lo's constant backing up out of bounds against Rocha was pretty absurd.
• Tanner Rice is really good.
  
• Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but why the hell was Erbeth given 2 points vs. Rice? Rice shot a high crotch, realized Erbeth was an immovable boulder, and sat to guard. That seems like a point-neutral sequence of events.

Isn't buchecha bigger and stronger than Erbeth? Walking past both of them at the event I was taken by how much thicker buchecha was.

 

[waiguoren]

Isn't buchecha bigger and stronger than Erbeth? Walking past both of them at the event I was taken by how much thicker buchecha was.

Could definitely be. I'm going off memory and again I don't follow this stuff as closely as you guys. That would be more evidence of my point about size.

 

[klnOmega]

Anyone know what the choke that Bernado Faria kept attempting on Vitor Tolido is called? The one where he passes his own label beside Vitor's neck in cross side, then moves to North/South to finish?

 

[klnOmega]

The bounds fuck up way too many matches with people losing subs and takedowns. Either mats should be about twice as big, or they need a barrier, like a cage.

 

[waiguoren]

I agree. Although I think this is more of an issue with general stalling than advantages. People stall on points too.

The broader issue of stalling can also have unintended consequences. BJJ has always been a stalling sport, and as such we get a lot of slow paced matches.

If we cranked up the stalling rules to Judo or Wrestling levels, we'd sure have more exciting matches. But we could also probably kiss the Absolute division goodbye as I don't know how smaller guys could realistically have a chance pushing the pace relentlessly against a bigger guy like that. Stalling and strategy is the weapon of the smaller guy.

Also we'd reward athleticism more by cracking down on stalling. Every guy competing at the Worlds is athletic, but within that, there does seem to be a difference between the guys who are pretty athletic and the guys who are just superhuman freaks of nature. As the rules stand, these guys can be pretty competitive with each other. With cranked up stalling rules, I'm pretty sure the superhuman freaks of nature will dominate easily.

Maybe that's what people want. It would be fun to watch. But a part of me also kind of likes the old style BJJ long game with lots of match strategy, good defense, and traps being set.

So much truth here man

 

[Kenny from MD]

Considering Buchecha is an ultra heavyweight, and Erberth is a super heavyweight, and Buchecha was able to go from bottom mount into a double leg, I'm gonna say he's stronger

 

[waiguoren]

All I know is Lo is a beast who could have arguably won a legit match against Buchecha.

Did not see it that way. To me Lo looked weaker than I've seen him before (I only watched absolute, for all I know he killed it in his weight division), and I felt he was fighting for survival in the entire finals match v. Buchecha. He was on the defensive playing catch-up the whole time. I was rooting for him because I always root for the smaller athlete. Basically, knowing nothing about their history against each other I think Buchecha wins that match 10/10 times.

 

[Dana_is_your_GOD]

Considering Buchecha is an ultra heavyweight, and Erberth is a super heavyweight, and Buchecha was able to go from bottom mount into a double leg, I'm gonna say he's stronger

Erberth is on some horse meat and Minotaur growth hormone

 

[waiguoren]

Can anyone fill me in on USADA's relationship with IBJJF? Are they doing random testing or only in-competition? I heard that one of the Meeows popped for clomiphene, and I'm guessing that was an in-competition test? So pretty much time your cycle right and you're good to go?

 

[klnOmega]

Since I spent an outlandish amount of time watching all the absolute division matches, I guess I should offer my thoughts as a guy who doesn't follow the sport very closely.

• Size and strength still matter. A lot. I mean, I know this from my own training but I guess there's always the hope that some little guy will find the magic solution. Rice/Poupolo (sp?) and Buchecha/Erbeth were the only two matches in which the stronger guy lost.

A Lightweight won Purple belt absolute.

 

[waiguoren]

A Lightweight won Purple belt absolute.

Good shit, nice to know. What's his name?

 

[klnOmega]

Good shit, nice to know. What's his name?

http://www.flograppling.com/article...gold-at-worlds-beats-three-ultra-heavyweights

Jonnatas Gracie from ATOS. Not a real Gracie.

 

[DaGenius]

Could definitely be. I'm going off memory and again I don't follow this stuff as closely as you guys. That would be more evidence of my point about size.

I don't disagree..size does matter. I just didn't understand when you said their match was an example of the stronger guy not winning...the stronger guy, buchecha, did win

 

[Uchi Mata]

Pre-Olympic Judo had much more stalling, right? I can't remember exactly, but I think I've heard that before.

Something about 20 min matches, only scores were waza-ari and ippon, ippon was much harder to score, lots of defensive grip fighting, etc.

I saw Rhadi Ferguson weigh in on FB about the rules. He said that he thinks BJJ will ultimately merge into Judo if you start enforcing stalling the same way. They really did start from the same place, and the main divergence was an early dispute over the rules with a small group from Brazil. If we bring the rules back together, we may end up with the same sport again.

That seems...unlikely. Mostly for political/tradition reasons. The major rules you'd have to change in Judo are eliminating the ippon as a win and go to more of a point scoring system, allow for extended periods of guard passing, including standing passing, potentially allow guard pulling, score points on the ground, and eliminate or at least modify pinning as a method of winning. That's a hell of a lot of changes. Even if you assumed that many of the changes came from the BJJ side (no more guard pulling, pins being a winning method, etc.) you're still talking about significant changes to both sports for them to become one and the same.

 

[Balto]

Yeah it strikes me as pretty far off, but I thought the comment was interesting. Time changes a lot of things.

Who knows where we'll be in 100 years. I wonder if Kano saw modern Judo vs modern BJJ which one he'd think was closer to original Kano Ryu JJ in a double blind test.

 

[yetanother]

There is a rule about initiating a takedown, and then ending up on bottom, counting as a takedown against you./QUOTE]

Did they IBJJF add it in a rules seminar (there isn't one in the rulebook). If you shoot a single leg and pull into a deep/lucas leite half do you loose points?

 

[the heed]

Anyone know what the choke that Bernado Faria kept attempting on Vitor Tolido is called? The one where he passes his own label beside Vitor's neck in cross side, then moves to North/South to finish?