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Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by jlowe, Oct 13, 2016.
If he had to wrestle Jordan 10 minutes after Ringer I would agree but there was a 5 hour break in between!! You are fully recovered from 2 matches, after a 5 hour rest with meals. Did you notice that Gilman and Zain just went in and got it done?
Cletus Tucker had a good post about it on the mat. Simply put.. the margin for error against some like Cox or Burroughs is much smaller than against Molinarino and Ramos.. and if you don't think fatigue or wrestling matches earlier in the day, which always effect you more than the most intense practice btw, didn't play a role.. you are either being willfully obtuse, ignorant, or basing it off your experiences against much less high level opponents in high school...
If you think the system is fine as is.. that's fine, if you think Dake and Taylor are whiners, that's fine, if you think the correct person won, that's fine. And I don't necessarily disagree with you.. But trying to say the system doesn't massively favor the person with the bye, that wrestling matches against opponents that would tech you so quickly you wouldn't even be a warmup earlier in the day doesn't affect your fatigue and sharpness against a top 1% opponent, or that Reffing favors Burroughs and he can get away with wrestling dirty in the US more than others can... didn't play more than a minor role in the outcome
you are being a deliberately obtuse fanboy of Burroughs or Dake hater, dumb, or haven't wrestled either in a long time or against opponents of that caliber
It's possible to observe things and not be a fanboy or making excuses. Especially because I'm pretty sure Te Huna Matata hates Dake
The words Cletus Tucker and good post shouldn't be in the same sentence.
It articulated it it best off what I could recall that's all lol
I will say that the bye into the finals is an unneeded variable but I don't believe for a second that it necessarily is always an advantage. There is something about being in the flow of a tournament, being physically warmed up and mentally sharp before you face your toughest competition. There are enough examples of a wrestler coming through the mini tourney and then winning a best of 3 at junior and senior levels to make me believe that we send our best reps. And once again, this has not been stated enough, there was a 5 HOUR BREAK in between Kyle's match with Ringer and his match with Jordan. If it were 10 minutes I would agree but 5 hours is more than enough time to recover your cardio and glycogen stores.
Also, Kyle had his chance to hammer his point home at Nationals when he had Jordan on "equal" footing and he still could not get it done. That showed me right there that the bye excuse was bullshit all along and Kyle is simply not quite there against Jordan. He may be there in the future but by then Ringer and Hall may be knocking on his door.
I'm aware of the "flow" going a tournament that exists. You still ignored my point and in this context the 5 hours isn't as big a deal as you think..
And you ignored how when all things were equal at Nationals, Kyle could still not get it done against Burroughs who was self admittedly a step behind his former self. If fatigue was such a big problem in their previous matches Kyle should have dominated him in this match right?
Jesus Christ you are dumb, my entire point was.. people saying that the bye and fatigue wasn't a massive factor.. are either stupid, fanboys, or haven't actually trained at a high level, and I'm starting to wonder which of those is you. I also very clearly stated that if you think that the outcome would've been the same that's fine, which was mention to carry through the notion that thinking Burroughs would have won anyway isn't unreasonable to think. Due to things like Burroughs winning at the Open. Glad I had to spell it out for ya since logical thinking can't penetrate otherwise.
And wow, "should have dominated him.." of all the arguments you could have made this is the stupidest, since you may not know this, let me spell out a few things about wrestling someone really good for you. When wrestling someone as good as Burroughs, whether or not he's lost a step, with undoubtedly biased reffing.. the margin for error is very small, fatigue rarely rarely shows itself by one person 'breaking' at that level. It shows in not quite moving your feet the way you should have so they get in deep, not quite driving through just a tad less than normal so you give up a re-attack you normally wouldn't etc. These are things directly related to fatigue that make a giant difference. For example, Kyle being worn out showed in the handfighting in the third match. )Handfighting being Burroughs most underrated aspect of his game on a side note)
In fact, let me spell out a couple things for you, I fucking hate Dake's whining to the refs and media, and some of the "tactics" he uses in his matches, I think that he should have gotten it done at the Open, I think there's a very good chance that Burroughs would have won anyway.... or the refs would have given it to him. I also think Taylor's tantrum was stupid and that in his own way, Taylor feels more entitled than Dake.
I can also objectively look at what happened and other things and go
1. Fatigue was undoubtedly a factor, to say otherwise is ignorance, stupidity, or being a fan
2. The Bye overwhelmingly favors the one sitting
3. Someone with Zain's gastank and ability to keep executing without PED's is once in a generation type thing
and is underrated as a innate physical tool
4. The reffing in the US will always favor Burroughs
5. Only returning medalists should get a bye if you have one
6. If you accept the arguments for the bye (which do have merit) they should have them the next day or week.
Cletus is by far the funniest poster on the mat.
The bye is obviously an advantage... that's the entire point of it.
That said I think it should be reserved for medalists and not Open winners.
Although I do think there should be other parameters around it. The point was to get the guy who would do the best in international competition without anointing someone.
Maybe is someone wins Yargin or does what Taylor did at the World Cup they have the finals match on a day different than the mini tournament.
Not sure if anyone else is paying attention to Russian Nationals but the guy that Taylor crushed at the World Cup (albeit largely due to fatigue) won 86, beating the presumed heir apparent to Sadulaev, Kudyamagomedov (sp?).
Rashidov also came out of 61 which was pretty loaded.
The advantage should be, and only be, getting the direct bye to the finals (which I'm fine with). Add in the physical edge they get when wrestling the finals the same day and it gets ridiculous. the challenge winner has to win a best 2 out of 3, after already wrestling 2 or 3 other matches in the same day.
The point of the bye, I would think, is to avoid a flukish type loss. But the finals should be wrestled on an even playing field.
And according to that Russian dude on The Mat (who is great btw), Geduev is staying at 74. There was a lot of talk about him moving up to 86.
When we talk about fatigue we always reference muscles... We often forget about the system that controls our movements... The system in the body which governs how fast or strongly a muscle contracts... The Central Nervous System
You sleep for only 3 hours... You wake up in the morning feeling shattered... You reach for the thing that can make you feel energised... Coffee... Coffee being a Central Nervous System stimulant
Think about grip strength... If you were to do strenuous grip training before a deadlift session... Would you be able to lift as much as you would normally; without doing any grip work?... No! hence why most athletes do intense grip training after their main training... Or as a separate workout altogether
Our strength, speed, coordination reflexes etc all originates from our central nervous system... But then is transmitted though our musculature... If the CNS is fatigued; don't matter how well recovered the muscles are... A schedule likes that of the WTT would tax your whole body... Not just the muscles
We all have different bodies... That have various levels of physical capacities...For example Gilman and Zain are lighter athletes... As we all know lighter athletes generally tend to have better gas tanks; than their heavier contemporaries
So it would be foolish to say Dake should have not been affected by his previous matches, because GIlman and Zain managed to get the job done... And it would foolish to try and assume the level of fatigue the Dake was experiencing
Then think about what it would be like to wrestle Burroughs 3 times back to back... That alone would wipe out most folk lol
It wasn't just fluke losses but to ensure we put the best guy forward.
They give the Open guy a buy to try and make sure everyone competes at the Open.
Listen Kyle, I know you lost again to Jordan but that's no reason to go and cry on a message board about how unfair everything is and that the world is against you. The fact is that you are 1 and 7 against him now and no amount of crying is going too change that.
1. Fatigue from earlier matches should not have played a deciding role considering your previous match at Nationals and the amount of rest and chance to refuel that you got Kyle
2. The bye may favor the one sitting in some matches but also could be a hindrance if the sitting wrestler comes in cold
3. You should work on your conditioning instead of crying Kyle
4. The reffing will most of the time favor the incumbent, especially a guy as decorated as Jordan
5. I'll agree with 5
6. You'd probably cry about having to weigh in 2 days in a row Kyle so the next week would be a better option.
Hey dumbass, way to ignore the fact I clearly stated I don't like Dakes antics or attitude. Or the part where I said Burroughs had a good chance to win anyway, I'm glad the high school tournament you did good in was a different experience. Good on ya. Junior Siko added some relavant points as well. And the reffing favoring Burroughs doesn't help in the long run when he'll go from being at least partially protected in the US to the complete opposite.
The fact that your brain is not capable of understanding that I'm not a Dake fanboy doesn't prevent me from observing or understanding flaws in the system and/or advantages that system gives if you don't think they are flaws
And again, if you think the results would have been the same or that the system is fine as is.. that is fine, however ignoring the reality or biases of that system is stupid and a reflection of how shitty most of the coaching and approach is in a lot of the country
And oh wait a minute... did I say a word about the world being against Dake or against Burroughs... no. You're just butt hurt that you realized you didn't actually read the first time and are trying to cover up