15 rounds vs. 12 rounds

[Minowafanatic]

This post makes no sense. We box less rounds for a reason, it's called living longer. Why are you on the lol and saying nothing but there are more people alive today? We know that as a fact so what's the issue?

I'll explain it to you simply and slowly so hopefully you can follow it this time.

1) Shoemaker posted a link. On that link is a document showing recorded deaths related to boxing over the years. He commented that the move from 15 rounds to 12 rounds seemingly hasn't reduced the number of boxers who die each year. I said that the number of people boxing over that same time period since 1982 will have risen. That is then obviously one explanation to account for why there might be an increase in deaths in boxing over that time period.

2) You said "You think more people box now? Wrong." when you got all confused for no reason.

3) So as for

Why are you on the lol and saying nothing but there are more people alive today? We know that as a fact so what's the issue?

It's a fact that more people are living today. So that suggests there would be more people boxing today too as a total number. Duh. I mean, how can you not connect those dots from my post?

You:

You think more people box now? Wrong.

Me:

In 1982 the population of the world was 4.6 billion. Now it's 7.5 billion. Proportionally there might be fewer people boxing, but overall in the total number there will definitely be more people boxing.

given that the population of the world has increased massively it's pretty obvious to me there'll be more boxers right now. Why do you think otherwise?

As for "We box less rounds for a reason, it's called living longer." you say that as if you think you're disagreeing with anything I said. But, you haven't understood anything I've said, as you can barely follow basic logic apparently.

 

[Sunfish]

I'll explain it to you simply and slowly so hopefully you can follow it this time.

1) Shoemaker posted a link. On that link is a document showing recorded deaths related to boxing over the years. He commented that the move from 15 rounds to 12 rounds seemingly hasn't reduced the number of boxers who die each year. I said that the number of people boxing over that same time period since 1982 will have risen. That is then obviously one explanation to account for why there might be an increase in deaths in boxing over that time period.

2) You said "You think more people box now? Wrong." when you got all confused for no reason.

3) So as for

It's a fact that more people are living today. So that suggests there would be more people boxing today too as a total number. Duh. I mean, how can you not connect those dots from my post?

You:



Me:



As for "We box less rounds for a reason, it's called living longer." you say that as if you think you're disagreeing with anything I said. But, you haven't understood anything I've said, as you can barely follow basic logic apparently.

Whilst I appreciate your efforts to treat me like a child with no brain cells you're wrong this time. From your response it doesn't seem like a discussion would help anything. There are no hard feelings from me towards you.

 

[Minowafanatic]

Whilst I appreciate your efforts to treat me like a child with no brain cells you're wrong this time. From your response it doesn't seem like a discussion would help anything. There are no hard feelings from me towards you.

Well, you did come out the gate in an aggressive way. If you don't think there's more people boxing today (total, not proportionally) than in the past, I mean, I can't see why you'd think that, and you haven't offered an explanation as to why you think that, but fine. But you obviously misunderstood my posts and seem to think that I would prefer 15 rounds over 12 rounds. As I said before, I think that 12 rounds are safer.

 

[Sunfish]

Well, you did come out the gate in an aggressive way. If you don't think there's more people boxing today (total, not proportionally) than in the past, I mean, I can't see why you'd think that, and you haven't offered an explanation as to why you think that, but fine. But you obviously misunderstood my posts and seem to think that I would prefer 15 rounds over 12 rounds. As I said before, I think that 12 rounds are safer.

I've clearly missed what you were getting at, I don't think you made it obvious but I'm cool with you, sorry that I came over as aggressive, wasn't my intention.

 

[Minowafanatic]

I've clearly missed what you were getting at, I don't think you made it obvious but I'm cool with you, sorry that I came over as aggressive, wasn't my intention.

It's cool, I was a dick, no worries, Sergio4lyfe

 

[treelo]

I'll explain it to you simply and slowly so hopefully you can follow it this time.
It's a fact that more people are living today. So that suggests there would be more people boxing today too as a total number. Duh. I mean, how can you not connect those dots from my post?ything I said. But, you haven't understood anything I've said, as you can barely follow basic logic apparently.

Right, i dont normally defend people, but are you fucking stupid or something?

Put some reasoning behind your posts rather than just maths. You do realise that other sports have got bigger/more popular and have a lot more people competing than boxing these days.

Not to mention the fact that there are a bazillion TV shows and computer games that people are playing these days, rather than slog at a hard job and then go to the gym to try and make it as a boxer

 

[Sharkey]

If you guys want to argue for the safety of the fighters then the number of rounds a bout is being scheduled for should be one of the last things being debated. Especially if your argument goes back to the time when process of switching from 15 to 12 rounds was undergoing. Boxing had and still has much deeper problems that could be detrimental to the fighters' health than that.

e.g. Duk Koo Kim should not have died on that day 25 years ago and it wasn't because of him being in a 15 round fight instead of 12. He shouldn't have died because he shouldn't have been in the fight in the first place and only was in the fight because of shady backroom politics between the ABA and Korean boxing officials, and then corruption and strongarming by those who wanted to justify the matchup and put the fight on.

 

[Shoemaker]

I think it's probably true that the number of people who box either as an amateur or professional etc has risen since the 80s. So there's more sparring going on, more fights, and so there's more deaths.

Meanwhile medical facilities will have improved and that counteracts that effect.

Just going through that link, the number of fights which went further than 12 rounds and ended in deaths from the 30s to 82 is about 7 from what I can see. So that's not a lot compared to the overall number. I bet though if you compared that number to the number of deaths of 15-round caliber fighters there'd been, it would still be a minority but would appear more significant. You'd have to guess that the top level title quality fighters are less likely to be killed boxing, and that going from 15 round fights to 12 probably reduces their likelihood of death a little bit too.

I'm not sure there's more people competing world wide - my gut feeling is that participation in the US has declined but I don't have the figures to back it up. I'll look into more later when I drag my ass out of bed finally.

I think officiating has more of an impact on deaths than the round limit. It's up to the ref and doctors to determine if the fighter cannot safely continue. I think you could arguably make fights 20 rounds and still have them be safe. There would be a lot more ref stoppages though.

Nowadays, I also think large gloves and headgear in the gym causes a lot of damage. It lulls people into thinking they can spar hard all the time and it scrambles their marbles. Toney does that and listen to him.

 

[droolingliver]

There is the theory that 12 rounds is actually more dangerous than 15, as boxers will attempt to use up all their energy and throw more punches with 3 less rounds.

It's easy to see the state boxers and how the fight is panning out at the end of the 12th and wonder what the outcome would be with 3 more to go. In that respect, Chavez Jr may have beaten Martinez, but, if he knew there was another 3 at the start of the 12th, would he have started the round with the intensity he did?

To answer the OP's question of who would have benefitted, I believe volume punchers would. The likes of Calzaghe and Pacquiao, who would go for it and throw as much as they could would have had the advantage.

 

[Sunfish]

Sexy would have spanked Jcc jr.

 

[Sharkey]

I'm not sure there's more people competing world wide - my gut feeling is that participation in the US has declined but I don't have the figures to back it up. I'll look into more later when I drag my ass out of bed finally.

I think officiating has more of an impact on deaths than the round limit. It's up to the ref and doctors to determine if the fighter cannot safely continue. I think you could arguably make fights 20 rounds and still have them be safe. There would be a lot more ref stoppages though.

Nowadays, I also think large gloves and headgear in the gym causes a lot of damage. It lulls people into thinking they can spar hard all the time and it scrambles their marbles. Toney does that and listen to him.

Incompetence in various decision making by a commission (sanctioning of mismatches, licensing fighters with health issues, etc), as well as poor officiating (or poor cornering when they don't put a fighter's health first), are certainly much more detrimental to the health of a fighter than the number of rounds a fight is scheduled for. The shady dealing of the alphabet gangs, and the promoters also put the fighters at great risk. Even television networks themselves have not been without blame when it comes to putting a fighter's safety first. How many blatant mismatches have we all seen all television that the networks were more than happy to pay a rights fee for? Tons of them.

 

[droolingliver]

Sexy would have spanked Jcc jr.

Ahaha, I had a feeling you may say that.

And I agree. Junior may have started the 12th slower, then wanted to start the 15th with more intensity, but by then he would have had less energy, while Martinez, who was a cardio machine, would still have been going strong.

 

[Sharkey]

The commissions used to be worse back in the day when the change was being made from 15 to 12 just because they lacked any of the uniformity we see. A fighter may have got knocked out in New Jersey one week, and while that commission may have given him a 60 day suspension, there was nothing stopping that fighter from crossing the state border and fighting in New York well before his suspension was up. Fighters used to get denied licenses to fight all the time in one or more states due to health concerns particular to them, but they would eventually find some state to sanction them (Aaron Pryor, Jerry Quarry, Ray Seales, etc., etc).

Shit, there used to be a pro boxer from back in those days that was allowed to box professionally despite the fact that he was carrying a pacemaker. A fucking pacemaker, and yet some commissions still allowed him to compete. His name was Benny Heijo or something close to that.

 

[Minowafanatic]

Right, i dont normally defend people, but are you fucking stupid or something?

Put some reasoning behind your posts rather than just maths. You do realise that other sports have got bigger/more popular and have a lot more people competing than boxing these days.

Not to mention the fact that there are a bazillion TV shows and computer games that people are playing these days, rather than slog at a hard job and then go to the gym to try and make it as a boxer

Other sports have always been more popular than boxing. People can spend more of their recreation time not involved with sports than in the past, but with a 3 billion population increase, the proportional number of people worldwide involved in boxing could have dropped by something like 40% per 10000 etc but then there'd still be more people boxing today than in 1982. I don't think there's a reason to think it would have dropped that significantly outside of the US. In the UK we know that it's increased over the last ten years, and we know that because of government funded surveys. I also pointed out how there's more professional boxers in the world active than there were in 2013 according to BoxRec. That's incomplete data obviously though so doesn't necessarily prove anything conclusively.

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong but in the post you quoted, I was stating that it was obvious that that was the point I was making, not necessarily that the point I was making was obviously true, and you've jumped into it and assumed the reverse and there's a big distinction there.

 

[Sharkey]

The WBC's changing of the championship distance was really just a cosmetic change to try to quiet down the public uproar that boxing was dealing with in the weeks before. The American Medical Association, USA Today, and all the other major influences that were attacking boxing could have done some real damage to the sport if they just peeled off a few layers and see what the real problems were in boxing. And by "real damage" I mean they may have gotten their wishes to abolish the sport in the US, because even such looking at boxing from the moral standpoint in which they did they did manage to damage the sport a whole lot.

 

[BluntTrauma21]

The commissions used to be worse back in the day when the change was being made from 15 to 12 just because they lacked any of the uniformity we see. A fighter may have got knocked out in New Jersey one week, and while that commission may have given him a 60 day suspension, there was nothing stopping that fighter from crossing the state border and fighting in New York well before his suspension was up. Fighters used to get denied licenses to fight all the time in one or more states due to health concerns particular to them, but they would eventually find some state to sanction them (Aaron Pryor, Jerry Quarry, Ray Seales, etc., etc).

Shit, there used to be a pro boxer from back in those days that was allowed to box professionally despite the fact that he was carrying a pacemaker. A fucking pacemaker, and yet some commissions still allowed him to compete. His name was Benny Heijo or something close to that.

Didn't WV or some state around there license Tommy Morrison to fight despite having hiv not too long ago too? Disgusting stuff.

I definitely agree with the sentiment that prior brain trauma not being noticed or even tested for by commissions and the like, cause most deaths in boxing.

 

[Sharkey]

Didn't WV or some state around there license Tommy Morrison to fight despite having hiv not too long ago too? Disgusting stuff.

I definitely agree with the sentiment that prior brain trauma not being noticed or even tested for by commissions and the like, cause most deaths in boxing.

Yeah. I'll take your word for it that it was West Virginia, but some state definitely allowed Morrison to compete under those conditions. I mean that shit is just, well, like you say. It's disgusting that it's allowed.

 

[Sunfish]

Didn't WV or some state around there license Tommy Morrison to fight despite having hiv not too long ago too? Disgusting stuff.

I definitely agree with the sentiment that prior brain trauma not being noticed or even tested for by commissions and the like, cause most deaths in boxing.

It was a state you don't normally associate with boxing and yeah they did after his pec implants. He was a d bag.

 

[Sharkey]

Benny Harjo was the guy's name who was allowed to fight with a pacemaker. This video was taken from Howard Cosell's 'Sportsbeat' program when he was one of the leading voices trying to push for the banning of boxing;

 

[tombombadil]

This post makes no sense. We box less rounds for a reason, it's called living longer. Why are you on the lol and saying nothing but there are more people alive today? We know that as a fact so what's the issue?

I'm gonna jump in here and offer my unpopular views. I believe in the purity if combat, and the desire to see the best man win, preferably not by decision. But, like you, I also dont like them being retarded for life.

I like longer fights, but less of them. Cap a career at 40 fights. Even less.