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Old 08-23-2014, 08:14 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by SnitchInsider View Post
Wow, fantastic job taking scores from the most poorly respected or most mediocre sites.

Where's all the ones from sites that you actually read?

If you can't tell the difference between the vast majority of these sites and the ones you posted in terms of MMA credibility, then you're lost.

Yet you post ones from BLEACHER REPORT, BLOODY ELBOW, 3 SHERDOG, BJPENN.COM and SPORTSNET.CA

Really? You're one to talk.

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Old 08-23-2014, 08:25 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Got GOAT View Post
Because "some" media that scored it for Gus needed to be quantified. The "original understanding" is that basically 90+% scored it for Jones, as per the MMA Decisions media scorecard. Clearly, that is not the case. I already explained why (multiple staff members from the same outlets scoring it for both in some cases).



Oh yeah? Prove to me that the MMA Decisions' media scores aren't biased then? One guy here was already supposed to do that. Docile is correct in what he said I was doing. I was accused of cherry picking the scores, well, if nobody else had scored it for Gus then I wouldn't have any cherries to pick, would I? Let alone as many. All but 1 of the 13 I gathered were AMERICAN media scores for the foreign fighter (Gus). All but 1 of the same amount of scores for Jon on his media scorecard were American (same nationality as him). Yes, look at how "biased" my sample is! Get real.
Dude, get over your freaking bias against America. Not all Americans are closed-minded and immediately think "vote for the American over the non-American." Most of us don't give a shit where a fighter is from as long as they're entertaining. This isn't the fucking Olympics or World Cup where it's Country A vs Country B, it's Fighter A vs Fighter B. The fact that you're trying to turn it into America vs. The rest of the world just proves your bias against the country since you seem to think that European scorecards that favor Gus somehow would show something that isn't bias, but American scorecards, which would be much less biased since America as a conglomerate is not looked upon like other countries considering it's an American company, are biased because they support Jones.

But I guess I'm just a clueless American right? Must just be an outlier that I wanted Machida to beat Weidman, who's from the same county as I am right? Or how I'd be rooting for Bisping to beat Rockhold if they ever face each other right?

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Old 08-23-2014, 08:33 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by TheLoneWolf527 View Post
Dude, get over your freaking bias against America. Not all Americans are closed-minded and immediately think "vote for the American over the non-American." Most of us don't give a shit where a fighter is from as long as they're entertaining. This isn't the fucking Olympics or World Cup where it's Country A vs Country B, it's Fighter A vs Fighter B. The fact that you're trying to turn it into America vs. The rest of the world just proves your bias against the country since you seem to think that European scorecards that favor Gus somehow would show something that isn't bias, but American scorecards, which would be much less biased since America as a conglomerate is not looked upon like other countries considering it's an American company, are biased because they support Jones.

But I guess I'm just a clueless American right? Must just be an outlier that I wanted Machida to beat Weidman, who's from the same county as I am right? Or how I'd be rooting for Bisping to beat Rockhold if they ever face each other right?
I'm American too, so surprise. Also, the reason I avoided collecting European media scores for Gus is due to potential favoritism/bias. So you couldn't be more incorrect if you tried. In fact, I used almost excusively ALL American media scores for them both, only 1 apiece was non-American (1 Canadian for Jones & 1 Euro/Dutch media score for Gus of the 13 each). If anything, I was very unbiased in doing so since I used American media scores for Gus after all.

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Old 08-23-2014, 08:35 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by TheLoneWolf527 View Post
Dude, get over your freaking bias against America. Not all Americans are closed-minded and immediately think "vote for the American over the non-American." Most of us don't give a shit where a fighter is from as long as they're entertaining. This isn't the fucking Olympics or World Cup where it's Country A vs Country B, it's Fighter A vs Fighter B. The fact that you're trying to turn it into America vs. The rest of the world just proves your bias against the country since you seem to think that European scorecards that favor Gus somehow would show something that isn't bias, but American scorecards, which would be much less biased since America as a conglomerate is not looked upon like other countries considering it's an American company, are biased because they support Jones.

But I guess I'm just a clueless American right? Must just be an outlier that I wanted Machida to beat Weidman, who's from the same county as I am right? Or how I'd be rooting for Bisping to beat Rockhold if they ever face each other right?
I'm going to make it clear I'm just walking in on this discussion and haven't read anything that led to this post, but I just want to say that there is a metric ton of nationalism in MMA fans.

It's not like the Olympics where you root for your countrymen no matter what, but it's definitely a major factor.

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Old 08-23-2014, 08:54 PM   #405
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My official response to my alleged "cherry picking". I didn't cherry pick the majority of my scores, in fact, 5 of them came from a journalist that wanted to see how other media outlet members scored the fight. He's also an American journalist, for the record. His findings (Jeremy Brand from MMA Sucka) are almost neck and neck in terms of the numbers. See for yourself...

Quote:
This past Saturday night (September 21, 2013) Jon Jones retained his UFC light heavyweight championship in a very close fight against Alexander Gustafsson.

The bout was so close, that many fans and media members alike believed that Gustafsson actually stole the scorecards and should have been announced as, “The new UFC light heavyweight champion.” I myself did score it in favor of “The Mauler”, giving him rounds 1-3 and Jones rounds 4 & 5.

When a fight is as close as this one was, I like to get the media’s perspective on the bout.

Check out the way some members of the media scored the bout below.


Damon Martin (Bleacher Report) - I scored the fight 48-47 for Alexander Gustafsson giving him rounds 1-3 and Jones rounds 4-5. Rewatching the fight on Sunday, the scoring for me came down to round 2, which was very close. Jones landed some good kicks in that round and if you weigh those slightly higher he wins the round and wins the fight 48-47. I don’t think there’s an argument against Jones winning because it was so close.

Ian Bain (MMA Opinion) - I still scored it 48-47 for Gustafsson. He pressed the first 3 rounds and was the aggressor. He stopped the takedowns – to be fair I have no qualms with the nod for Jones though the fight was close. Great fight!

Brian Hemminger (MMA mania) - I scored the fight 48-47 for Jones. I thought he took the second, fourth and fifth rounds. While the fight was close, the people who scored it for Gustafsson were probably giving him bonus points for doing much better than anyone expected him to do. He was less accurate and was outstruck, only beating Jones in volume of strikes thrown, not landed.

Danny Acosta (Prime One Productions) - 1-3 for Gus, 4-5 Jones

Adam Martin (MMA Oddsbreaker) - I was live at the ACC and I scored the fight 48-47 Jones, giving him rounds 3, 4 and 5 and Gustafsson the first two. I have since watched the fight again twice on tape and I believe there is definitely an argument to be made that Gustafsson won the first three rounds, but I personally gave round three to Jones. Either way, it was a super close fight and I hope they “do it again, brother.”

Bryan Levick (Alchemist Radio) - I’ve gone back and forth. When I first watched it I saw it 48-47 Gustafsson, but when I rewatched it I had it 48-47 Jones. Either way I don’t think you could be wrong, but scoring it 49-46 is disgusting.

Shawn W. Smith (Freelance Writer) - I scored the bout 48-47 for Jon Jones but can honestly see reasonable arguments that most of these rounds could go either way. It was an incredibly close fight and the idea that there was any sort of robbery here is absolutely ludicrous.

E. Spencer Kyte (The Province) - 48-47 Jones

James Lynch (TSN.ca) - I still have it Jon Jones 48-47. I gave Gustafsson the first two rounds then Jones the rest of the way. Honestly it’s one of the closest fights I’ve ever seen, but I felt the decision was warranted. No robbery at all. It’s rare you see a fight this close and not feel bad about the result

Erik Fontanez (Gracie Mag) - I scored it 48-47, Jones. I gave Gus the first two rounds, the last three to Jones.

Dave Farra (Fight Now TV) - I had it 3-2 for Gus

Ariel Shnerer (Fight Network) – I have not watched the fight since but I had it 49-46 at the time in favor of Jones, scoring the first for Gustafsson.

Bear Frazer (Fight! Magazine) - I actually scored it 48-47 Gustafsson


Media Members scoring the fight for Jones: 7

Media Members scoring the fight for Gustafsson: 6
Media POV: Jon Jones vs. Alexander Gustafsson

I used 5 of the 6 for Gus given here since one of the 6 changed their mind after rewatching while others seemed that it could've gone either way. I only went with the media member's scores that were definitively in favor of scoring the fight for Gustafsson. This was a collection of 13 samples that shows the media scoring much closer than MMA Decisions' media scores collection indicates (all but 1 in favor of Jones). Big difference. Here the number of scores is almost split down the middle or 50/50.

So, who is more credible? This guy's score gathering or MMA Decisions'? If this guy that scored it for Gus that collected these scores had his own agenda then he would've found all of the scores that he could in favor of Gus and not many for Jones and reported them instead to paint the picture of Gus getting the majority of media scores over Jones (as MMA Decisions painted with their media scores, intentionally or unintentionally).

So there goes that theory. That accounts for 5 scores for Gustafsson that I did not personally collect myself or "cherry pick". Three more scores were already well known that I also added in there from other samplings from MMA Decisions and others that gave the 3 well known media scores for Gus - from BJPenn.com, Pro MMA Now & CBS Sports that you'll see on the vast Pro-Jones media scorecards around the web. So that leaves 8 scores that I didn't cherry pick of the 13 in total. That means 61.5% of the scores I presented, I didn't gather first, but were already gathered and reported beforehand and in a non-biased manner.

Only 7.1% (1/14) of the media scores had it for Gus with the media score collection that MMA Decisions presented. Meanwhile, 46.1% (6/13) / 38.5% (5/13) had it for Gus with MMA Sucka's media scores collection. That's a big difference, more than 30% (nearly 1/3rd). That sounds a lot more realistic to me given how close their fight was where the media scores were closer to 50/50 or 60/40 for Jones (from almost entirely American media outlets).

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Last edited by Got GOAT; 08-23-2014 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 08-23-2014, 09:45 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Rittsy View Post
I'm not asking you to conclusively prove it, I'm asking you to provide evidence. In such a close fight the judges should have scored it how they saw the fight. That's how it works.

Yes. Very good. Corruption exists.
Machida vs. Davis was a close, controversial fight. It's also known as a "robbery" or "gift-wrapped win" for Davis. While the fight did take place in Brazil, all 3 judges on the panel judging their fight were American. All 3 judges gave 2 out of the 3 rounds to Davis over Machida.

http://mmadecisions.com/decision/438...-Lyoto-Machida

Recently, Phil Davis went on record saying that he knows that his next fight will be "unfair" in Brazil against Glover if/when it goes to the judges for decision.

Quote:
Phil Davis worried about Brazilian judges at UFC 179: ‘It’s not going to be a fair fight’

While there have been some odd decisions dealt on international fight cards in the past, Davis is particularly worried about competing against a Brazilian on his own soil, as he does not trust the Brazilian judges to keep the fight "fair."

"Do I worry about the judges? Absolutely I worry about the judges. Is it gonna be a fair fight? No it's not going to be a fair fight. Do I expect it to be, you know uneven? Absolutely."
Phil Davis worried about Brazilian judges at UFC 179: ‘It’s not going to be a fair fight’

What he's really worried about is that the UFC could very well select judges from Brazil or South America and not the typical American judges that are often used outside of the US when UFC events are held. He doesn't really have to worry though because far more often than not, the judges are American (or live in North America). Still, it's just more evidence to nationalistic bias that Davis is well aware of. Maybe he knows that since he may've been "gifted" his win over Machida thanks to American judges last time, he might not be so fortunate this time against another Brazilian in Brazil?

What's more, just today the UFC decided to "act as their own commission" which is quite worrisome. They should not have the ability/power to do so whatsoever. They personally removed one of the judges because they felt that his scoring for the first couple bouts was "questionable". Who is the UFC to decide what is questionable and what isn't? That isn't their place or jurisdiction.

Quote:
An unnamed judge was relieved of cageside duties following what the Ultimate Fighting Championship deemed as questionable scoring during the two opening bouts of UFC Fight Night "Bisping vs. Le."

The UFC, which serves as its own athletic commission when holding events outside of the United States, made the decision following Milana Dudieva against Elizabeth Phillips and Royston Wee versus Zhuikui Yao.
Dudieva defeated Phillips via split decision, while Wee captured a split verdict over Yao.

UFC President Dana White confirmed the decision during the event’s post-fight press conference.

"Did you ask me sir, if it was true, that a judge was removed?" White said. "Yes, he was. He was involved in the first fight and the second fight. I told the guys to go let him grab some beer and some popcorn and go sit down and start watching some fights, not judging them."
The female fighter that felt she got robbed had this to say...

Quote:
“I got robbed so fucking bad.”

“I’m done fighting for awhile cause this is some corrupt shit.”
Acting as Own Commission in Macau, UFC Removes Judge at Fight Night ‘Bisping vs. Le’

The UFC personally selects each of the judges when holding all UFC events outside of the US. As if this wasn't bad enough, they're now deciding to "act as their own commission" and can remove and potentially even replace judges that they believe are "questionable", per their discretion, as they see fit. If this doesn't raise some huge red flags to you then nothing ever will. Corruption, nationalistic and racial bias exists in all sports and MMA isn't exempt from this.

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Old 08-25-2014, 05:15 AM   #407
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Icon1 ...

More media sources incoming!...

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Which now gives us approximately TWO-DOZEN Media Sources...

  • Gregg Doyel (CBS Sports): 48-47 Gustafsson
    CBS Sports
    ·
  • Chase Raymond (BJPenn.com): 48-47 Gustafsson
    BJPenn.com
    ·
  • Jack Bratcher (Pro MMA Now): 48-47 Gustafsson
    Pro MMA Now
    ·
  • Jeremy Brand (MMA Sucka): 48-47 Gustafsson
    ·
  • Damon Martin (Bleacher Report): 48-47 Gustafsson
    ·
  • Ian Bain (MMA Opinion): 48-47 Gustafsson
    ·
  • Danny Acosta (Prime One Productions): 48-47 Gustafsson
    ·
  • Dave Farra (Fight Now TV): 48-47 Gustafsson
    ·
  • Bear Frazer (Fight! Magazine): 48-47 Gustafsson
    Source For All 6 Media Scores Above
    ·
  • Elias Cepeda (Cage Potato): 48-47 Gustafsson
    Cage Potato
    ·
  • Brett Okamoto (ESPN): 48-47 Gustafsson
    ESPN
    ·
  • Robert Sargent (MMA Rising): 48-47 Gustafsson
    MMA Rising
    ·
  • Albert Wolfgang (Evolutionary.org): 48-47 Gustafsson
    Evolutionary.org Fight PBP & Evolutionary.org Fight Review
    ·
  • Anonymous «Head?» Journalist (MMA Mania): 48-47 Gustafsson
    MMA Mania
    ·
  • Anonymous «Head?» Journalist (FIGHTLAND): 48-47 Gustafsson
    FIGHTLAND
    ·
  • Stephie Daniels (MMA Sentinel & Bloody Elbow & Kounter Move): N/A Gustafsson
    MMA Sentinel & Bloody Elbow & Kounter Move
    ·
  • Anonymous «Head?» Journalist (Fight Star MMA): N/A Gustafsson
    Fight Star MMA
    ·
  • "Zombie Prophet" (Formerly of Bloody Elbow & Iron Forges Iron): 48-47 Gustafsson
    Formerly of Bloody Elbow & Iron Forges Iron
    ·
  • "The MMA Expert" John D. Villarreal (CNM/Conservative New Media): 48-47 Gustafsson
    Conservative New Media
    ·
  • Brad Gustafson (Fight Parrot): N/A Gustafsson
    Fight Parrot
    ·
  • Pedro Carrasco (BJPenn.com's Editor-in-Chief): N/A Gustafsson
    BJPenn.com
    ·
  • Anonymous «Head?» Journalist (Spilled Bag of Ice [SBoI]): 48-47 Gustafsson
    Spilled Bag of Ice
    ·
  • "Ack Attack" (NO DQ): N/A Gustafsson
    NO DQ
    ·
  • David Kano (TV MIX/Filmon.tv): N/A Gustafsson
    TV Mix

I'll be updating Gustafsson's media scores card later today (after I get off work) to reflect the 11 new additions. \m/

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Last edited by Got GOAT; 09-01-2014 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 08-25-2014, 05:56 AM   #408
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This thread sure is informative!

I do however agree with the UFC replacing that judge in Macao, it's great that they don't have to stay the victim of lousy judging for the whole event simply because they "already chose the judges" that guy was having some fun it seemed.

Anyway, on topic..... REMATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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