I was talking more about Pride compaired to the UFC today.
In terms of backing though the UFC did I'd guess have alot more in terms of its ability to run up debts. Granted alot of the current debt is the Feritta's barrowing agenst it to support their casino business but the impression I got is that between the Zuffa takeover and 05-06 you were looking at tens of millions in debt over a good 4 years.
I don't think any other MMA org has had close to that degree of finanical backing, Pride was larger but because the MMA business was larger in Japan with DSE alone not financing everything.
My guess is the UFC probabley could have afford to pay someone like Crocop close to his Pride wages pre TUF, what they could not do was deliver the same degree of sponsorship and endorsements opportunties that Pride could being on mainstream Japanese TV. Even today I think the PPV system naturally limates the appeal of MMA and so the ability to earn from these areas in favour of cashing in more on the hardcore fanbase.
I think you mean that borrowed against the Casino business to support the UFC. They undoubtedly make more with their casinos here in Las Vegas.
__________________
"Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless,... like water" - Bruce Lee
[Yeah, that's right,.. Be like water. Fall on the ground & spread out helplessly.]
Where are the official charges about the "Yakuza"?
Where are the legal proceedings?
You know what happens in Japan when a business is accused of being tied to the Yakuza? It is abandoned.
It's funny how this all took place after Dana White lost his Chuck bet at the Pride event, then ran away without paying it.
Then Yakuza accusations were thrown around, never founded, no charges, yet the company is sold to Zuffa.
<G> how convenient.
You're talking bullshit here. It was reported in all the Japanese newspapers and magazines, do you REALLY think that Fuji TV would give a shit about what Dana White says?
Quote:
Originally Posted by THECYNDlCATE
60,000 - 80,000+ people per month, at each fight, don't really agree with your statement.
You're talking bullshit there, again. Because alot of PRIDE shows were held in arenas that didn't hold 60,000, let alone 80,000, PRIDE were involved in ONE show that did 80,000, and that was a co-promotion with K-1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by THECYNDlCATE
They paid their fighters FAR more than the UFC and gave them medical insurance as well,.. all long before the UFC did. They made far more money and had larger gates than the UFC does to this very day.
So really, the original statement simply isn't correct. They were VERY popular and did very well.
The UFC hardly EVER releases PPV Buy numbers and I bet you haven't seen any for Pride shows either.
Sorry man, but there is a reason people still long for Pride.
So, can you provide EVIDENCE for any of this? Because I can't find ANYTHING about medical insurance. Also, the gulf between fighter pay isn't as great as you seem to claim, Fedor only got £100,000 for his fight in the US.
Also, what do you mean "Hardly ever releases buyrates", they're there for EVERY UFC PPV.
So, are you that much of a fanboy that you have to make up shit to defend them?
__________________
When UFC on FOX first aired, we got the 'Fox noobs' when TUF started, we got the 'TUF noobs', does that mean there were 'Friends noobs' in the 90s?
I have no idea, I think they're more entertaining when they clearly make shit up to make it look better.
On the UFC side, you see more "I don't know this shit, therefore it sucks", whereas on the PRIDE side, it's "I'm just gonna make some shit up".
__________________
When UFC on FOX first aired, we got the 'Fox noobs' when TUF started, we got the 'TUF noobs', does that mean there were 'Friends noobs' in the 90s?
You're talking bullshit here. It was reported in all the Japanese newspapers and magazines, do you REALLY think that Fuji TV would give a shit about what Dana White says?
Really, then provide a link to ALL of these Japanese Newspapers and magazines. It wasn't about Fuji TV, it is about what the people and government of Japan think about the Yakuza and how they treat businesses that they think are involved with them, proven or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigg
You're talking bullshit there, again. Because alot of PRIDE shows were held in arenas that didn't hold 60,000, let alone 80,000, PRIDE were involved in ONE show that did 80,000, and that was a co-promotion with K-1.
You say it's "bullshit" then go right on to admit that they had a show that did 80,000+. So it looks like you are talking, "bullshit".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigg
So, can you provide EVIDENCE for any of this? Because I can't find ANYTHING about medical insurance. Also, the gulf between fighter pay isn't as great as you seem to claim, Fedor only got £100,000 for his fight in the US.
Also, what do you mean "Hardly ever releases buyrates", they're there for EVERY UFC PPV.
So, are you that much of a fanboy that you have to make up shit to defend them?
The medical insurance was well known.
It's one of the reasons it was implemented here.
The "gulf" WAS as great as I claim it was. The UFC fighters were lucky to make 3 to 10 grand at the time.
The UFC NEVER releases real PPV numbers. 3rd party people release PROJECTIONS.
With your hate directed at me, it seems you are a bit jealous of the fact that you missed the golden age of MMA with Pride.
__________________
"Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless,... like water" - Bruce Lee
[Yeah, that's right,.. Be like water. Fall on the ground & spread out helplessly.]
1). Really, then provide a link to ALL of these Japanese Newspapers and magazines. It wasn't about Fuji TV, it is about what the people and government of Japan think about the Yakuza and how they treat businesses that they think are involved with them, proven or not.
2.) You say it's "bullshit" then go right on to admit that they had a show that did 80,000+. So it looks like you are talking, "bullshit".
3.) The medical insurance was well known.
It's one of the reasons it was implemented here.
The "gulf" WAS as great as I claim it was. The UFC fighters were lucky to make 3 to 10 grand at the time.
The UFC NEVER releases real PPV numbers. 3rd party people release PROJECTIONS.
With your hate directed at me, it seems you are a bit jealous of the fact that you missed the golden age of MMA with Pride.
1). Funnily enough, I don't read Japanese, but here's a link about Dan Herbertson's interview with Miro Mijatovic, who was Fedor and Cro Cop's manager, whose lawsuit exposed the Yakuza involvement in PRIDE, where he talks about Momose and Ishizaka, as well as the death of Morishita.
Originally Posted by THECYNDlCATE
60,000 - 80,000+ people per month, at each fight, don't really agree with your statement.
So, your very own words said that they pulled those numbers EVERY fight, which is bullshit, they did ONE show where they did those number, ONE show. All you need to do is check the capacity for the buildings they were in to show they're not pulling 60,000.
3.) Again, Fedor received $100,000 for fighting Coleman. In fact, here is the DISCLOSED fighter pay from around the same period.
Pride 33: The second coming --- disclosed payroll = $430,000
(UFC 67: All or nothing --------- disclosed payroll = $803,000)
Pride 32: The real deal ---------- disclosed payroll = $495,000
(UFC 61: Bitter Rivals ----------- disclosed payroll = $676,000).
Baring in mind, that's just the disclosed pay, but who knows really. But Cro Cop got $350,000 per fight when he signed for the UFC, and that was just after he won the OWGP, now, why would he take a pay cut to go to the UFC?
Now, again, I asked you to provide EVIDENCE for Health Insurance in PRIDE, provide EVIDENCE of this, and then I will believe you, but you've spouted quite alot of bullshit in your defence of PRIDE.
But you are right about the 3rd party forecasts, but still, they're made available, I shall give you that one nugget of non-bulshittery.
Now, check the join date, I was around for PRIDE, and I'm a PRIDE fan, considering that I've spent money on importing posters, and have PRIDE DVDs etc. So, I'm jealous that I missed PRIDE when I was around for it?
__________________
When UFC on FOX first aired, we got the 'Fox noobs' when TUF started, we got the 'TUF noobs', does that mean there were 'Friends noobs' in the 90s?
1). Funnily enough, I don't read Japanese, but here's a link about Dan Herbertson's interview with Miro Mijatovic, who was Fedor and Cro Cop's manager, whose lawsuit exposed the Yakuza involvement in PRIDE, where he talks about Momose and Ishizaka, as well as the death of Morishita.
Originally Posted by THECYNDlCATE
60,000 - 80,000+ people per month, at each fight, don't really agree with your statement.
So, your very own words said that they pulled those numbers EVERY fight, which is bullshit, they did ONE show where they did those number, ONE show. All you need to do is check the capacity for the buildings they were in to show they're not pulling 60,000.
3.) Again, Fedor received $100,000 for fighting Coleman. In fact, here is the DISCLOSED fighter pay from around the same period.
Pride 33: The second coming --- disclosed payroll = $430,000
(UFC 67: All or nothing --------- disclosed payroll = $803,000)
Pride 32: The real deal ---------- disclosed payroll = $495,000
(UFC 61: Bitter Rivals ----------- disclosed payroll = $676,000).
Baring in mind, that's just the disclosed pay, but who knows really. But Cro Cop got $350,000 per fight when he signed for the UFC, and that was just after he won the OWGP, now, why would he take a pay cut to go to the UFC?
Now, again, I asked you to provide EVIDENCE for Health Insurance in PRIDE, provide EVIDENCE of this, and then I will believe you, but you've spouted quite alot of bullshit in your defence of PRIDE.
But you are right about the 3rd party forecasts, but still, they're made available, I shall give you that one nugget of non-bulshittery.
Now, check the join date, I was around for PRIDE, and I'm a PRIDE fan, considering that I've spent money on importing posters, and have PRIDE DVDs etc. So, I'm jealous that I missed PRIDE when I was around for it?
Yeah, neither of those are Newspapers or Magazines from Japan, nor are they ALL of them.
I think it's funny who you are pumping your chest out, demanding proof of insurance in Pride, yet you have backed up nothing you said with any proof, lol. I thought you would get that by my previous statement, but you didn't.
Why would CroCop take a pay cut?
He didn't, Pride was going/GONE and he knew it.
He simply had to survive.
The pay in Pride was better than the pay in the UFC for each fighter, during the same time period, including the medical coverage.
It's you that spews the "bullshittery".
I also love how you claim Pride people "Make stuff up", yet I have caught you red handed, making stuff up.
Please continue shooting yourself in the foot.
__________________
"Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless,... like water" - Bruce Lee
[Yeah, that's right,.. Be like water. Fall on the ground & spread out helplessly.]
Yeah, neither of those are Newspapers or Magazines from Japan, nor are they ALL of them.
I think it's funny who you are pumping your chest out, demanding proof of insurance in Pride, yet you have backed up nothing you said with any proof, lol. I thought you would get that by my previous statement, but you didn't.
Why would CroCop take a pay cut?
He didn't, Pride was going/GONE and he knew it.
He simply had to survive.
The pay in Pride was better than the pay in the UFC for each fighter, during the same time period, including the medical coverage.
It's you that spews the "bullshittery".
I also love how you claim Pride people "Make stuff up", yet I have caught you red handed, making stuff up.
Please continue shooting yourself in the foot.
See, you're not actually interested in the actual proof. One being from an actual employee of the Japanese newspaper, but that somehow doesn't count, a guy who actually reported on it, in a Japanese newspaper? Fair enough, a guy who actually covered it in the Japanese news media isn't actually proof, that makes a shit-tonne of sense, because instead of interviews with guys who were actually there, you need me to search for 7 year old articles from Japanese news papers.
Now, again, you bullshitted about "Every" fight being 60,000 - 80,000. So, do you still believe that they did that? Because alot of the buildings the ran in not even having a capacity of 60,000, which puts your claim under.
In fact, here are the buildings they ran, with their capacities, you can add a few thousand for floor seats:
Saitama Super Arena: 37,000 (accounting for floor seats, PRIDE drew about 49,000)
Thomas & Mack Centre: 18,000
Yokahama Arena: 17,000
Nippon Gaishi Hall: 10,000
Osaka Dome: 37,000
Ariake Coliseum: 10,000
Osaka Castle Hall: 14,000
Tokyo Dome: Pride Drew 67,000 which does fit your claim
Fukuoka Convention Center: 8,500
Tokyo National Stadium: That's where they drew the 91,000, but that was also a K-1 show, putting K-1 fighters against PRIDE fighters.
Seibu Dome - 36,000
Nippon Budokan - 14,000
Tokyo Dome - 47,000
They also did some shows called "The Best" that drew 3,000 at best, so we'll discard them. So, one show (with K-1) that drew 91,000, and one PRIDE show that actually fell within your claim. So, are you willing to actually say you made the "Every fight" comment up?
Now, do you see how your "Every Fight" claim was bullshit?
Now, I still attempted to provide back up to my claims, you're not even doing it, you're basically saying "I don't need to, it's well known". I also provided the disclosed amounts from fights that were from the same period, showing that it's not that massive. When PRIDE were in America, they were paying guys $2k, so it's not like every PRIDE fighter were getting these huge saleries.
__________________
When UFC on FOX first aired, we got the 'Fox noobs' when TUF started, we got the 'TUF noobs', does that mean there were 'Friends noobs' in the 90s?
See, you're not actually interested in the actual proof. One being from an actual employee of the Japanese newspaper, but that somehow doesn't count, a guy who actually reported on it, in a Japanese newspaper? Fair enough, a guy who actually covered it in the Japanese news media isn't actually proof, that makes a shit-tonne of sense, because instead of interviews with guys who were actually there, you need me to search for 7 year old articles from Japanese news papers.
Now, again, you bullshitted about "Every" fight being 60,000 - 80,000. So, do you still believe that they did that? Because alot of the buildings the ran in not even having a capacity of 60,000, which puts your claim under.
In fact, here are the buildings they ran, with their capacities, you can add a few thousand for floor seats:
Saitama Super Arena: 37,000 (accounting for floor seats, PRIDE drew about 49,000)
Thomas & Mack Centre: 18,000
Yokahama Arena: 17,000
Nippon Gaishi Hall: 10,000
Osaka Dome: 37,000
Ariake Coliseum: 10,000
Osaka Castle Hall: 14,000
Tokyo Dome: Pride Drew 67,000 which does fit your claim
Fukuoka Convention Center: 8,500
Tokyo National Stadium: That's where they drew the 91,000, but that was also a K-1 show, putting K-1 fighters against PRIDE fighters.
Seibu Dome - 36,000
Nippon Budokan - 14,000
Tokyo Dome - 47,000
They also did some shows called "The Best" that drew 3,000 at best, so we'll discard them. So, one show (with K-1) that drew 91,000, and one PRIDE show that actually fell within your claim. So, are you willing to actually say you made the "Every fight" comment up?
Now, do you see how your "Every Fight" claim was bullshit?
Now, I still attempted to provide back up to my claims, you're not even doing it, you're basically saying "I don't need to, it's well known". I also provided the disclosed amounts from fights that were from the same period, showing that it's not that massive. When PRIDE were in America, they were paying guys $2k, so it's not like every PRIDE fighter were getting these huge saleries.
I said every month, at each fight.
Did you not watch some of the Pride fights? At some, if not all of the events, there were areas of standing room only, where there was no seats.
Bringing up Pride in America is a sad, last ditch effort on your part.
It was already under the direction of the UFC at that point.
They already knew they were going to transition to Zuffa and that was the entire point of having the shows here.
So the pay for those events should be attributed to Zuffa and the UFC, not Pride.
Do me a favor, show me a UFC show that did 91k people during the same time.
Show me a UFC show that did 60k people at the same time.
Hell, show me a UFC show that did 30k people at the same time.
As far as your "reporter" goes, you said ALL of the newspapers & magazines from Japan, so I am still waiting on all of them.
I am also waiting on your court documents that show this link to the Yakuza.
BTW, I just had a chat with Enson Inoue and he said that Pride covered 100% of their medical bills.
So when are YOU going to admit you are making shit up?
__________________
"Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless,... like water" - Bruce Lee
[Yeah, that's right,.. Be like water. Fall on the ground & spread out helplessly.]
I said every month, at each fight.
Did you not watch some of the Pride fights? At some, if not all of the events, there were areas of standing room only, where there was no seats.
Bringing up Pride in America is a sad, last ditch effort on your part.
It was already under the direction of the UFC at that point.
They already knew they were going to transition to Zuffa and that was the entire point of having the shows here.
So the pay for those events should be attributed to Zuffa and the UFC, not Pride.
Do me a favor, show me a UFC show that did 91k people during the same time.
Show me a UFC show that did 60k people at the same time.
Hell, show me a UFC show that did 30k people at the same time.
As far as your "reporter" goes, you said ALL of the newspapers & magazines from Japan, so I am still waiting on all of them.
I am also waiting on your court documents that show this link to the Yakuza.
BTW, I just had a chat with Enson Inoue and he said that Pride covered 100% of their medical bills.
So when are YOU going to admit you are making shit up?
Again, some of the arenas had a CAPACITY of 17,000, you can't put 60,000 people in a building where the CAPACITY is 17,000, do you know what CAPACITY means? That means the most people you can fit in there. So, you still gonna fit 60,000 people in there?
Now, you say "Standing room only" here's Silva vs. Iwasaki, this was the 91,000 show, and there's a good shot of the crowd... SITTING DOWN!
Goodridge/Frye... Crowd sat down
When PRIDE went to America, they were still owned by Dream Stage Entertainment, it wasn't until May 25, 2007 when they sold. They US shows were in February and also October in 2006. So, they weren't "Under the control of the UFC", PRIDE made a last ditch effort to gain a bigger US audience, which failed miserabley, hence them selling.
Also, I'm not the one saying "The UFC did this, that and the other", YOU are the one saying "Every month, at every fight, 60,000-80,000+", but I'm discussing this with someone who seemingly doesn't understand what "Capacity" means. Also, that 91,000 show was also a K-1 show, not just PRIDE. I believed that PRIDE was better than the UFC. However, you're being told to quit making shit up and exaggerating (that means overblowing things to make it better or worse, I thought I'd tell you seeing as you don't understand what CAPACITY means. I no way shape or form was I saying that UFC were doing that, I'm saying that YOU shouldn't make shit up.
Now, onto your last thing, you're asking me to Prove articles from over seven years ago, in newspapers that aren't in my country in a language I don't speak, read or understand, it's impossible to do. Now you're asking for Court Documents, from seven years ago, again, in a country I don't live in, in a language I don't speak, read or understand. However, a news story, and an interview with a guy who covered it, and a news story and an interview with a guy who exposed it in court isn't good enough for you?
Now, I've tried doing it for you, oddly enough, I looked for where else Enson Inoue said that PRIDE covered the medical bills, and your post was number 1 on google. Now I asked you provide evidence on such a thing, not "Well, I talked to him, and he said they did". However, it would not surprise me if they did. Once again, I didn't say "They don't", I said "Provide evidence because I cannot find any".
Cliff notes:
- Capacity means "The most you can fit in", you can't put 60,000 people in a 17,000 capacity.
- Provide EVIDENCE.
__________________
When UFC on FOX first aired, we got the 'Fox noobs' when TUF started, we got the 'TUF noobs', does that mean there were 'Friends noobs' in the 90s?
