BJJ Question for the Smaller Guys and Girls Out There!!

[Imparanoid]

Originally Posted by Discipulus

Your advice seemed to boil down to: "Those subs would have worked against someone of the same size" and "Go apeshit on bigger people in a real fight when mounted, because there are no rules".

The first doesn't help her at all, and in fact is a commonly heard excuse for not being able to defeat larger people in rolling. If Marcelo Garcia's game was based around what would work for someone his own size, he wouldn't be so impressive.

The second is akin to the countless Youtube-fu experts who are convinced that BJJ is useless because a submission attempt or dominant position can be defeated with dirty street fighting tactics, when we all know that the same tactics are equally if not more applicable for the person in dominant position--in this case, a bigger person than the victim, and likely a stronger male attacker.

I wasn't nitpicking, but your advice wasn't very helpful for her in a real world application sense. Unless she wants to compete in absolute, you're probably right about the subs. But if she's concerned with self defense or absolute competition, then you didn't offer much to help her, other than an excuse for why she got controlled by the big guy, and some dubious advice for real encounters. And since, even if she doesn't care about street fighting or absolute divisions, she will almost certainly be rolling with this big guy again, she should learn to use the submissions best suited for the size difference. The fact is, some submissions are always going to be hard to get in that kind of matchup. She shouldn't try to Americana the guy from mount, for example--I've had that tried on my by tons of smaller guys, and it ain't no thing. I actually wait for it to be partially locked in so that I can bridge them to that side when their arms are too occupied with my arm to post.

I stood up, and my partner obliged. I've never been cautioned against standing, and in my last roll I ended up fighting grips on the feet for the last bit of it.

I think both of you have legitimate points.. No doubt some subs will only work with people smaller/ same size.. To my understanding, part of learning jits, is to work with what you have, so if you are rolling with someone bigger, you would know not to use those particular subs.

I've never competed (5 months experience) but am figuring out about stepping on the mat this upcoming spring/summer. Absolute divisions/ competing against larger people are a good thing to keep in mind but I don't think it will happen in the near future! On the flip side, I've seen videos where girls have stepped up to fight guys, as no other girls registered to compete. Hopefully, for a first competition, the opponent would be pretty much same strength/size to simplify things! As I am definitely not Marcelo!!

As far as self defense goes, I do have my taser to back me up! And a few kicks to the groin couldn't hurt... Well that's just it, they should hurt!

Appreciate so much everyone taking time to respond to help me on my BJJ journey!!

[TheMMAnalyst]

Originally Posted by Discipulus

Your advice seemed to boil down to: "Those subs would have worked against someone of the same size" and "Go apeshit on bigger people in a real fight when mounted, because there are no rules".

The first doesn't help her at all, and in fact is a commonly heard excuse for not being able to defeat larger people in rolling. If Marcelo Garcia's game was based around what would work for someone his own size, he wouldn't be so impressive.

The second is akin to the countless Youtube-fu experts who are convinced that BJJ is useless because a submission attempt or dominant position can be defeated with dirty street fighting tactics, when we all know that the same tactics are equally if not more applicable for the person in dominant position--in this case, a bigger person than the victim, and likely a stronger male attacker.

I wasn't nitpicking, but your advice wasn't very helpful for her in a real world application sense. Unless she wants to compete in absolute, you're probably right about the subs. But if she's concerned with self defense or absolute competition, then you didn't offer much to help her, other than an excuse for why she got controlled by the big guy, and some dubious advice for real encounters. And since, even if she doesn't care about street fighting or absolute divisions, she will almost certainly be rolling with this big guy again, she should learn to use the submissions best suited for the size difference. The fact is, some submissions are always going to be hard to get in that kind of matchup. She shouldn't try to Americana the guy from mount, for example--I've had that tried on my by tons of smaller guys, and it ain't no thing. I actually wait for it to be partially locked in so that I can bridge them to that side when their arms are too occupied with my arm to post.

I stood up, and my partner obliged. I've never been cautioned against standing, and in my last roll I ended up fighting grips on the feet for the last bit of it.

From nit-picking to shit-picking...classic Sherdog.

You've got a really strange way of reading people's posts my friend. In response to another posters question I just mentioned that in a tournament there won't be such a size/strength mismatch and in a real fight it is in your best interest to use illegal BJJ tactics for self-defense purposes (i.e. Groin Attacks). I'm sure your advice of going for armbars sweeps on someone that is twice your size and mounting you is going to be really effective in a streetfight...

My advice didn't mention anything about "going apeshit" or that "the subs would have worked on someone the same size", so once again I don't understand where you get this stuff from - honestly, it's your advice which is terrible, recommending she work on subs when she is getting positionally controlled. 1st lesson of BJJ - Position before Submission, something you apparently aren't too keen on. As she is giving up so much weight/strength, even if applied with perfect technique most guys (especially ones with big egos) will power out of the subs with ease. Her problem isn't only technique and training mentality, it's the quality of training partners she is working with (in this case one dude). She should be working on conserving energy, forcing transitions, and defense, not going for subs - I mean, seriously?!?!

Based on what happened with you and your partner it sounds like you aren't getting proper instruction in your studio - if you stand up and the other guy stands up then one or both of you should sit down and continue training. You don't do stand-up when there are other guys around you rolling, you can fall on people's heads/knees and cause serious damage. Stand-up is for competition training or when there aren't people training on the mat next to you, really bad idea.

Just because you name-drop Marcelo Garcia and talk about going for an Americana from mount doesn't mean you understand Jiu-Jitsu theory; anyone can watch BJJ videos or learn submissions. It's understanding the logic behind the set-ups and the pacing that makes BJJ effective, otherwise all you need to do is learn submissions and you'll be OK because you trained an armbar before.

Now I know that came off as harsh and you'll probably come back at me with a double-barreled shotgun of flame, but seriously bro, read what I said and think about it. You are literally putting words in my mouth I never said and then twisting them so that they say the opposite of what I said. Kind of infuriating to be honest.

[TheMMAnalyst]

Originally Posted by Discipulus

This is the notion that I was disputing. It sounds to me like her opponent had worse cardio, and so used the mount position to rest before making his next move. Given that he apparently had complete control and dominance, I don't think he did anything wrong. He took advantage of his position, was patient, and used his weight effectively. That's not ignoring the "goal" of training BJJ. In fact, that is a big part of the goal of training BJJ. That's just good Jiu Jitsu.

It sounded like a big heavy dude was sitting on top of her in mount not attempting subs - if you are not very experienced and not very strong, your training partner isn't teaching you anything except that it sucks to have someone on top of you and be unable to get out.

You must be annoying as a training partner if you think that it is good BJJ to use all your physical attributes to dominate someone while teaching them nothing; no wonder a lot of instructors don't want girls rolling with dudes, if they have your mindset they will just beat the girls up while teaching them nothing, all the while thinking to themselves "I've neutralized her so this is good jiu-jitsu."

Good jiu-jitsu benefits both parties, even the person losing - I learn a lot more in losing than in winning, so I don't mind getting beat up, as long as the person is attempting to train the art and not stall (which apparently to you is "resting").

Edit - If I get mount on a girl and don't want to let her get out, she isn't getting out, probably even if she is a BB. If you are that much bigger and stronger you can hold that position all day, I've seen blue belts in my studio mount BB girls for 6 minutes straight, all the technique in the world doesn't help if the guy on top only wants to stay on top and do nothing else.

[trustdoesntrust]

Originally Posted by Imparanoid

I think both of you have legitimate points.. No doubt some subs will only work with people smaller/ same size.. To my understanding, part of learning jits, is to work with what you have, so if you are rolling with someone bigger, you would know not to use those particular subs.

I've never competed (5 months experience) but am figuring out about stepping on the mat this upcoming spring/summer. Absolute divisions/ competing against larger people are a good thing to keep in mind but I don't think it will happen in the near future! On the flip side, I've seen videos where girls have stepped up to fight guys, as no other girls registered to compete. Hopefully, for a first competition, the opponent would be pretty much same strength/size to simplify things! As I am definitely not Marcelo!!

As far as self defense goes, I do have my taser to back me up! And a few kicks to the groin couldn't hurt... Well that's just it, they should hurt!

Appreciate so much everyone taking time to respond to help me on my BJJ journey!!

My last 2 cents on this topic: I'm not a girl, but I am a guy on the smaller side (150 lbs.). No matter what you are though, you have to learn to embrace trouble rather than ignore or bang your fists against it. As I understand it, your problem is that a guy's laying on top of you in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable, both in a jits context and real person context. I say good! You have just found a key to your success, if you are truly prepared to face your fear and self-discover why this is happening. Mining this board for little tricks to free your hand or whatever is not what's going to help. You must break things down to a fundamental level-- where is your opponent's weight focused? why is it pinning you? what are you not doing to escape?

My advice would be to get your instructor (not the internet) to reteach one or two basic mount escapes and pay close attention to every detail. Drill the hell out of those escapes, trying to be as technical and detailed as possible. Then when you are rolling, let yourself get put into mount as much as possible, and practice those mount escapes over and over until you are able to easily escape. You will fail a lot, but you should keep evaluating and learning from your mistakes. After a while, you will find that what was once a major weakness of yours has become a major strength.

[beamlord]

Not being particularily helpful here but you could mock him verbally : D

On a serious note, there's not much you could do, and if it's in training, your instructor should actually not allow that to happen (stalling/wasting time). He should be doing something. If this dude wants to take a break, he can get off the mats and do whatever, but there's absolutely no reason for him to do that while having you mounted ffs.

I can say, there's very few people who can do anything against that if I decide to mount them and just pin their arms down. I can do that to pretty much anyone and then take a break or something, as I'm not just substantially heavier than the others but also stronger. But if I feel like I need a break, I'd just tell them they win and get off the mat. Because pinning them down is an asshat thing to do.

[Discipulus]

Originally Posted by TheMMAnalyst

It sounded like a big heavy dude was sitting on top of her in mount not attempting subs - if you are not very experienced and not very strong, your training partner isn't teaching you anything except that it sucks to have someone on top of you and be unable to get out.

You must be annoying as a training partner if you think that it is good BJJ to use all your physical attributes to dominate someone while teaching them nothing; no wonder a lot of instructors don't want girls rolling with dudes, if they have your mindset they will just beat the girls up while teaching them nothing, all the while thinking to themselves "I've neutralized her so this is good jiu-jitsu."

Good jiu-jitsu benefits both parties, even the person losing - I learn a lot more in losing than in winning, so I don't mind getting beat up, as long as the person is attempting to train the art and not stall (which apparently to you is "resting").

Edit - If I get mount on a girl and don't want to let her get out, she isn't getting out, probably even if she is a BB. If you are that much bigger and stronger you can hold that position all day, I've seen blue belts in my studio mount BB girls for 6 minutes straight, all the technique in the world doesn't help if the guy on top only wants to stay on top and do nothing else.

I'm a very new white belt, man. So I'm usually the one being taught. If I were to mount someone even newer than me and a minute passed without them being able to do anything, I'd probably go for something. But I usually catch things from mount off of people reacting and trying to get me off mount. So yeah, I do think that patience is key. Some would call it stalling, but many people would call Royce Gracie's early UFC matches stalling, as well. Until he got the sub, of course.

Now, I don't just smash people smaller and less experienced than me. I tend to pull guard and work for a sweep rather than starting from standing or on top. But when I get low mount, why shouldn't I work my position properly? I cross my feet and make my hips heavy and play with an Ezekiel set up to get high mount. If they don't lift their elbows to defend the choke or I can't get high mount for some reason, I'll wait and bide my time, letting my weight do the work. Granted, the people who don't overreact to defend the choke are more experienced, so I don't feel bad squishing them. It's good practice for them to go against a bigger, less technical newbie. New people usually try to defend, and so I get high mount.

I guess I'm not advocating the "sit in mount and do literally nothing" approach that TS' opponent was doing, but I don't think it's bad form to use your dominant position to catch your breath. I guess you have incredible cardio? Not all of us do.

P.S. Higher belts neutralize my shit all the damn time, and it's a great learning experience. I promise you the first time I'm able to completely neutralize someone in a roll, so that they can't do anything to regain position, I will let up for the rest of the roll and then give them advice. I'm sure that won't happen until I'm a blue belt.

[Discipulus]

And this is for you, TS:



You face a big fool like me, just take the back.

[TheMMAnalyst]

Originally Posted by Discipulus

I'm a very new white belt, man. So I'm usually the one being taught. If I were to mount someone even newer than me and a minute passed without them being able to do anything, I'd probably go for something. But I usually catch things from mount off of people reacting and trying to get me off mount. So yeah, I do think that patience is key. Some would call it stalling, but many people would call Royce Gracie's early UFC matches stalling, as well. Until he got the sub, of course.

Now, I don't just smash people smaller and less experienced than me. I tend to pull guard and work for a sweep rather than starting from standing or on top. But when I get low mount, why shouldn't I work my position properly? I cross my feet and make my hips heavy and play with an Ezekiel set up to get high mount. If they don't lift their elbows to defend the choke or I can't get high mount for some reason, I'll wait and bide my time, letting my weight do the work. Granted, the people who don't overreact to defend the choke are more experienced, so I don't feel bad squishing them. It's good practice for them to go against a bigger, less technical newbie. New people usually try to defend, and so I get high mount.

I guess I'm not advocating the "sit in mount and do literally nothing" approach that TS' opponent was doing, but I don't think it's bad form to use your dominant position to catch your breath. I guess you have incredible cardio? Not all of us do.

P.S. Higher belts neutralize my shit all the damn time, and it's a great learning experience. I promise you the first time I'm able to completely neutralize someone in a roll, so that they can't do anything to regain position, I will let up for the rest of the roll and then give them advice. I'm sure that won't happen until I'm a blue belt.

I didn't mean to be rude to you my friend, my apologies if it came off that way.

I'm a long-time blue belt (almost purple belt, just hit the 6 year mark and belt promotions are next month) and have been getting smashed by a plethora of blacks and browns non-stop for years. I have really good cardio (better than most), but I'm not against resting in certain positions, it's definitely part of the game (it all ties back to my "use your energy intelligently" argument).

My main point to the OP was that her situation is unique - she is giving up a ton of weight/strength and doesn't have much experience, sometimes technique means nothing when you are at that big a disadvantage, you need a training partner who respects your limitations and knows how to push you. When I was a white-belt I trained with a 300+ pound black belt who would literally make you tap from side control by smothering and crushing your solar plexus, so I know all about people crushing you with strength and weight distribution (sometimes all your tools aren't enough to help).

There is nothing wrong with working proper mount and setting up chokes; however, the OP said the dude was sitting on her in mount pinning her arms down. That isn't BJJ, that's what older brothers do to their annoying kid brothers before giving them noogies and wet-willies. It isn't a submission and it isn't a technique, it's just annoying and it was frustrating enough for the OP to start a thread here about it.

You sound like you get mount, stabilize, then start working chokes (proper technique), so my hats off to you for working proper techniques. If someone plays a shell game (i.e. arms crossed in the neck, elbows in, etc.) then obviously you can't rush things and try for armbars/chokes that aren't there. I just think the OP's situation was very unique and I replied as such based on my experiences.

[PCypert]

A lot of people treat this like it's another dude. The fact is depending ont he girl they need to take precautions to make sure they can train consistently over time. Yes there's tournaments and fights and all of that DOWN THE ROAD. But the main thing is to develop a situation where she can roll comfortably for multiple days a week. Sure my 47KG gf can take a 100kg going knee on belly for a roll...maybe once or twice, but hell even I can't do it for all the 6-10 rolls we usually do over our 3 hours of daily training.

So while it might sound right in your head to think challenge them in real world situations, some just don't have the physicality required to maintain this OVER TIME. Precautions need to be in order, safety in place, trust established so she can come to class with me 5 days a week

To the guy who asked if it bothers me to see her roll with other dudes...f$$$ no. There's a couple creepy guys at the gym she won't be rolling with but that's just common sense. The other guys are good friends and in the heat of the roll nothing dodgy or odd is going on. I mean do you feel anything sexual when you're rolling? So why would a girl get all hot and bothered just because she doesn't have a crotch? Are girls just brainless sex starved creatures that respond to any touch that comes their way? I might feel different if our relationship wasn't healthy, but it is so no worries. We always have at least one roll together and it's really great for us. There's a mundial champion who does the same.

[Discipulus]

Originally Posted by TheMMAnalyst

I didn't mean to be rude to you my friend, my apologies if it came off that way.

I'm a long-time blue belt (almost purple belt, just hit the 6 year mark and belt promotions are next month) and have been getting smashed by a plethora of blacks and browns non-stop for years. I have really good cardio (better than most), but I'm not against resting in certain positions, it's definitely part of the game (it all ties back to my "use your energy intelligently" argument).

My main point to the OP was that her situation is unique - she is giving up a ton of weight/strength and doesn't have much experience, sometimes technique means nothing when you are at that big a disadvantage, you need a training partner who respects your limitations and knows how to push you. When I was a white-belt I trained with a 300+ pound black belt who would literally make you tap from side control by smothering and crushing your solar plexus, so I know all about people crushing you with strength and weight distribution (sometimes all your tools aren't enough to help).

There is nothing wrong with working proper mount and setting up chokes; however, the OP said the dude was sitting on her in mount pinning her arms down. That isn't BJJ, that's what older brothers do to their annoying kid brothers before giving them noogies and wet-willies. It isn't a submission and it isn't a technique, it's just annoying and it was frustrating enough for the OP to start a thread here about it.

You sound like you get mount, stabilize, then start working chokes (proper technique), so my hats off to you for working proper techniques. If someone plays a shell game (i.e. arms crossed in the neck, elbows in, etc.) then obviously you can't rush things and try for armbars/chokes that aren't there. I just think the OP's situation was very unique and I replied as such based on my experiences.

Don't worry, I wasn't offended in the least. You've got a very good point, and that's an important difference. Reading the OP again, it does not sound like the big guy was doing what I do, rather just pinning TS to the ground. Which, you're right, might be effective but isn't good training or good jiu jitsu.