Edgar Vs Aldo (stand up) Who has the edge? Who wins?

[ssullivan80]

Originally Posted by peanut66

there an old saying at our club , counter a good puncher with your feet , and counter a good kicker with your punches

a person would be naive to think that in todays mma having a good kicking , knee , clinch game is not necessary , that just good boxing is enough im sure you would agree " sully"

to "nuke " my point was that having kicking attacks and counters as well as boxing attacks and counters opens up another part of the game ,, i dont know who "arnie " is , so i cant comment on that ,, i thought we were talking about aldo vs edgar

I agree. Good punchers can be rendered far less effective by a good kicker. But in all honesty, good kickers get beat by good punchers much more often than the otherwise. There are those select few, but they are more the exception than the rule (i.e Remy Bonjasky). Even in a sport like K1 that is far more the kickers venue, the puncher dominates most often. There is a reason the highest KO ratios are attributable to guys like Jerome LeBanner, Ray Sefo, Masato or Melvin Manhoef. Even those guys considered "great kickers" with high KO ratio's end fights with their hands far more often i.e: Aerts, Badr Hari, Crocop.

In MMA, you have a set of rules that aren't nearly as favorable to kickers as they are in K1. Not to say that being a good kicker isn't an extremely valuable asset, it absolutely is. I also agree 100% that being a good boxer isn't nearly enough, see what happened to James Toney! Still, If your looking purely at what makes an MMA fighter effective, being a good kicker is low on the list. In fact, If you were going to attribute any 1 single attribute to being dominant in MMA wrestling would win by a landslide. If I had to train a fighter to be a successful MMA competitor, a boxer/wrestler would be first choice, without a doubt. It's far easier to train that guy to defend/counter the kicker than it is to train the kicker/clinch fighter to defend the takedown and boxing in the pocket.

[ssullivan80]

Originally Posted by Nuclearlandmine

but the level of striking in MMA, while steadily improving, is not at that level yet considering there are still sloppy strikers that can still hang and bang with other people in the highest level of MMA that is the UFC.

Just an FYI, there are sloppy punchers that can still hang and bang with top level boxers as well. Just like there are sloppy kick-boxers that can do the same at the top level. "Sloppy" is a loosely defined term when it comes to many a fighter. Many boxing technicians would call Marcos Maidana "sloppy", but trust this, he'll whoop that ass really quick. Same could be said about Badr Hari, who's style is often far from technical and does get pretty sloppy....... but still, he will fuck you up, regardless of how "poor" the technique.

[peanut66]

Originally Posted by ssullivan80

I agree. Good punchers can be rendered far less effective by a good kicker. But in all honesty, good kickers get beat by good punchers much more often than the otherwise. There are those select few, but they are more the exception than the rule (i.e Remy Bonjasky). Even in a sport like K1 that is far more the kickers venue, the puncher dominates most often. There is a reason the highest KO ratios are attributable to guys like Jerome LeBanner, Ray Sefo, Masato or Melvin Manhoef. Even those guys considered "great kickers" with high KO ratio's end fights with their hands far more often i.e: Aerts, Badr Hari, Crocop.

In MMA, you have a set of rules that aren't nearly as favorable to kickers as they are in K1. Not to say that being a good kicker isn't an extremely valuable asset, it absolutely is. I also agree 100% that being a good boxer isn't nearly enough, see what happened to James Toney! Still, If your looking purely at what makes an MMA fighter effective, being a good kicker is low on the list. In fact, If you were going to attribute any 1 single attribute to being dominant in MMA wrestling would win by a landslide. If I had to train a fighter to be a successful MMA competitor, a boxer/wrestler would be me first choice. It's far easier to train that guy to defend/counter the kicker than it is to train the kicker/clinch fighter to defend the takedown and boxing in the pocket.

so if your first choice would be a boxer / wrestler , you must be rooting for frankie edgar , oh wait , you picked aldo ..... see what i did there lol

its much easier to punch someone in the face than to kick someone in the face , that is why there is more punching kos , the legs are much stronger then the arms , and a good leg kicking game in mma is very valuable , body and legs are fine , you dont even need a high section game , but when you start chopping a boxers legs , the game changes .

[Nuclearlandmine]

Originally Posted by ssullivan80

Just an FYI, there are sloppy punchers that can still hang and bang with top level boxers as well. Just like there are sloppy kick-boxers that can do the same at the top level. "Sloppy" is a loosely defined term when it comes to many a fighter. Many boxing technicians would call Marcos Maidana "sloppy", but trust this, he'll whoop that ass really quick. Same could be said about Badr Hari, who's style is often far from technical and does get pretty sloppy....... but still, he will fuck you up, regardless of how "poor" the technique.

Of course. Now if they are effective at what they are doing, then that's fine by me because they can use other things such as strength or size or aggression to offset their technical definiciencies. But it is really preferable?

[ssullivan80]

Originally Posted by peanut66

so if your first choice would be a boxer / wrestler , you must be rooting for frankie edgar , oh wait , you picked aldo ..... see what i did there lol

its much easier to punch someone in the face than to kick someone in the face , that is why there is more punching kos , the legs are much stronger then the arms , and a good leg kicking game in mma is very valuable , body and legs are fine , you dont even need a high section game , but when you start chopping a boxers legs , the game changes .

Absolutely, If I had to train a "green" fighter to be successful in MMA it'd be a boxer wrestler. They are the most consistently successful fighters in MMA. Guys like Aldo, Anderson, Jon Jones, Machida, they aren't the rule...... they are the exception.

I choose Aldo because I don't think Frankies wrestling is good enough to beat Aldo's striking, because Aldo's TD defense is superior to Edgars striking defense. I don't see Frankie as being a better boxer than Aldo either, in fact quite the opposite. Frankie's not difficult to hit, his boxing defense is nowhere near that of Aldo's. Aldo is difficult to hit in the pocket and is a good counter striker. So in short, Aldo's only disadvantage may be on his back (and he is a BJJ BB)....... how much time has he spent on his back?

[devante]

Originally Posted by Frode Falch

Am i missing something here. Is this a big joke that i dont get?

Jose Aldo is so much better at everything in the stand up, that i dont get how this can be a serious discussion.

Sure Edgar know how to strike. But the difference between the two are very very very big

Exactly you have a very good striker, against a guy who can strike good; big gap between what you can do and what you are. Frankie has been outclassing one dimensional (strike wise) guys on the feet, guys he is quicker than (hands and feet) and more mobile than. As well as being the more effective overall striker, beating up on Maynard doesn't prove anything in regards to what he can do on the feet against Aldo; getting beaten up by Henderson does prove what is gonna happen. Cuz Aldo is a faster more explosive and tech striker with comparable if not better rd def; an he def has better boxing and kicks and knees. So Edgar will face the exact same issues..only different being Ben is a better off wrestler, but his off wrestling played no part in either fight. So hat is wiped out.

Edgar is hard to fight cause he is quick moves around alot doesn't wear down and moves away from guys; nothing he does off or def is particularly good. Esp def where his movement is what saves him more than any real tech ability..imo.

[Bay Area]

Originally Posted by devante

nothing he does off or def is particularly good

I agree with defense, but not offense. His offense and angle usage is some of the best in the game. Look how many times he was catching BJ

[devante]

Originally Posted by Bay Area

I agree with defense, but not offense. His offense and angle usage is some of the best in the game. Look how many times he was catching BJ

Very true...I am not saying it's bad per se; but I think Aldo has better hands, and his perceived area of strength I.e. boxing isnt as stellar as it is made out to be. He has good hands, but his most effective weapon is his footwork; more importantly his constant movement. His particular approach to footwork makes him dangerous, his jabs hooks crosses uppercuts aren't so damaging powerwise or speed wise or even tech; his setup is what makes him.

I think Aldo is quick enough to stay with him...and explosive enough to catch up if when Edgar gets him out of position; this isnt to even consider that Aldo has very good footwork...circling...backing up and moving forward. He isnt like some of these other guys who have limited mobility because of stance or are just not very mobile naturally; I don't think Frankie will consistently get as many openings and I think the windows are smaller because of aldos array of weapons his tech and athleticism.

So then it comes down to who can do more...an to me Aldo is the better off/def kicker and puncher; an he is more effective at more ranges, inside..out..middle. mark hominick has better hands than Edgar, an Aldo ate him up. Mark isnt as busy or mobile...but tech he is better and physically he takes a better shot and hits harder.

[ssullivan80]

Originally Posted by Bay Area

I agree with defense, but not offense. His offense and angle usage is some of the best in the game. Look how many times he was catching BJ

I don't know if that's necessarily true. I think BJ was really just an ideal opponent for Frankie's style and just couldn't adapt. If anything, i'd say Frankie is one of the best fighters at pressing the pace, and that is his real strength. He's really not overwhelmingly good at any one thing, other than he is a tough, scrappy guy that can fight at a pace that his opponents have difficulty maintaining or adjusting too. I see Frankie Edgar much like I see Clay Guida in terms of the kind of opponent they are. Ultimately, they win because their toughness and work rate overwhelms their opponents.

[ssullivan80]

Originally Posted by devante

Very true...I am not saying it's bad per se; but I think Aldo has better hands, and his perceived area of strength I.e. boxing isnt as stellar as it is made out to be. He has good hands, but his most effective weapon is his footwork; more importantly his constant movement. His particular approach to footwork makes him dangerous, his jabs hooks crosses uppercuts aren't so damaging powerwise or speed wise or even tech; his setup is what makes him.

I think Aldo is quick enough to stay with him...and explosive enough to catch up if when Edgar gets him out of position; this isnt to even consider that Aldo has very good footwork...circling...backing up and moving forward. He isnt like some of these other guys who have limited mobility because of stance or are just not very mobile naturally; I don't think Frankie will consistently get as many openings and I think the windows are smaller because of aldos array of weapons his tech and athleticism.

So then it comes down to who can do more...an to me Aldo is the better off/def kicker and puncher; an he is more effective at more ranges, inside..out..middle. mark hominick has better hands than Edgar, an Aldo ate him up. Mark isnt as busy or mobile...but tech he is better and physically he takes a better shot and hits harder.

Aldo is quicker IMO (as quick at least) on his feet than Bendo and a far more explosive striker. People keep eluding to Frankie's ability to "find angles". From what I saw in his fight against Bendo, his ability to find those angles, get in-out wasn't enough that it deterred Bendo from firing in and jabbing his lead leg/thigh repeatedly....... If Bendo was able to get him timed and dialed in enough that he could consistently fire in and jab his lead then get back out before Edgar could even begin to mount any sort of attack. Well, let's be honest, imagine the openings Aldo is going to find when he fires in......... ugh....... gonna be a rough night for Frankie. Strangely enough, the biggest threat I see to Aldo in this fight is that he is fighting in his backyard in Brazil and the pressure from the crowd, combined with the pressure from the UFC to make this an impressive showing for him could make him overly aggressive/reckless...... I could see that leading to him getting caught early or gassing in the later rounds, when Frankie is the most dangerous. In short, the biggest disadvantage for Aldo, could be what most consider as his advantage.