Attacking from Turtle Guard

SteppingStones · 01-03-2013, 03:45 PM

I've been scouring YouTube looking for info on how to attack from the turtle guard and not just stall, but no such luck. If anyone could give me some pointers it would be much appreciated.

armtriangle · 01-03-2013, 03:58 PM

Your "sweeps" are pretty much variations of wrestling reversals... Telles does a lot of peterson-esque type rolls. You can do a switch.

As for actually attacking submissions... you have the kimura sakuraba style. You can roll under for a knee bar/leg lock. That's pretty much it for submissions I think. There are lots of things you can as you roll back to guard, like triangles, etc.

I have Eduardo Telles' set "Turtle and Octopus guard"... and it is pretty much the authority on turtle in bjj. Telles has the most stuff. I use some of his defensive stuff like defending the clock, but I was never really able to implement his "sweeps" against guys at my size and level, despite already being familiar with his reversals from wrestling.

armtriangle · 01-03-2013, 04:04 PM

Here:

if you mean n/s turtle, that is really a different position.

KJGould · 01-03-2013, 04:04 PM

I still find it hard to believe Telles has no wrestling background with the sweeps he's using. 'Parallel Thinking' is always a possibility, just doesn't feel likely.

**Zankou** · 01-03-2013, 04:08 PM

There are only so many ways to escape from the turtle.

Little-known fact, Telles developed his turtle game from butterfly guard. He kept playing more and more of a "squashed" butterfly, bringing the other foot increasingly further under him until he just played pure turtle.

I think turtle guard is simply too difficult and specialized to be effective for 95% of players. Among other things, the rest of your game better be razor tight before you start working on an offensive turtle game.

armtriangle · 01-03-2013, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJGould

I still find it hard to believe Telles has no wrestling background with the sweeps he's using. 'Parallel Thinking' is always a possibility, just doesn't feel likely.

I don't think there is a conspiracy to cover up his wrestling base. Obviously he picked the moves up from somewhere and then tweaked them some... I don't think anyone is denying that BJJ guys integrated wrestling early on.

I am sure we have all seen this:

ZOMG Rickson has a wrestling base! I am sure wrestling stuff came in way before that. I don't think anyone, even the GJJ marketers, try to deny that.

armtriangle · 01-03-2013, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zankou

I think turtle guard is simply too difficult and specialized to be effective for 95% of players. Among other things, the rest of your game better be razor tight before you start working on an offensive turtle game.

It certainly isn't as versatile as guard. For one, you can be subbed there pretty easily, and there are virtually no subs for you. So "guard" as we usually think of it really should be a step above turtle IMO. Guard= lots of subs, sweeps, escapes, and very few attacks against you. Turtle= escapes, reversals, no subs, and you can be subbed in any number of ways. I think a lot of guys that have trouble playing guard get sidetracked on the turtle path (self included)... but guard really is a better position IMO.

**Zankou** · 01-03-2013, 04:26 PM

There are lots of attacks and options from the turtle. The problem is there is just way too much to handle. Your defenses and attacks are very complicated, and they differ completely depending upon whether the guy is in front of you, to your side, or behind you. I think it is just too technically demanding for people to use with offensive success unless they are basically a black belt who devotes a lot of time to it. Most people can't even handle rudimentary turtle defense, much less escaping, much less attacking.

I have Telles' set, and a few years ago I worked on the material, but this was my conclusion ... it's simply too much unless you are going to be a turtle specialist and the rest of your game is already good. This is why, I think, nobody else has developed a very solid turtle game. Instead you see people going to turtle to defend the guard pass, which is a different thing from developing an offensive turtle game.

Terror Zone · 01-03-2013, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zankou

Little-known fact, Telles developed his turtle game from butterfly guard. He kept playing more and more of a "squashed" butterfly, bringing the other foot increasingly further under him until he just played pure turtle.

Every time I've heard Telles explain it, he's said that as a purple belt Terere kept passing his open guard and instead of working to get his guard back, he got used to turtling. He talks about it here, but I've heard him give this same explanation in interviews as well.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Quote:

I think turtle guard is simply too difficult and specialized to be effective for 95% of players. Among other things, the rest of your game better be razor tight before you start working on an offensive turtle game.

Wrong.

**Zankou** · 01-03-2013, 04:41 PM

That's what I recall somebody saying who had trained with him back in the academy ... this was years ago though. That Telles kept going from butterfly more and more into a turtle defensive position earlier and earlier to defend the guard pass until he ended up basically just turtling from the start.

As to whether turtle guard is too specialized to be effective for 95% of people, I suppose you can disagree with me but I haven't exactly seen a wave of people dominating from turtle in BJJ. My belief is that only a few people are able to get it to work due to its technical demands. If I'm wrong and turtle is the new berimbolo, I'd be delighted to see that, as I think it's a very cool game.