Vegan/Vegitarianism debunked by Paleo/Evolutionary Biology?

[Seriously-Dead]

Originally Posted by Nozza

Let's rule out those with health problems. Can you not commit to any general health advice? That's what governments and NGOs have to do. They recommend pretty much what I've said.

Let's say it's a 25 year old man who is of average weight, no health problems, no goals other than to stay healthy. What's your advice then?

I disagree that it's void of meaning. It cannot mean anything. It fit any of the fad diets like paleo, ultra-low fat, keto and so on.

The most specific advice I can commit to goes like this:

Eat protein, fat and carbs. Do not avoid saturated fat or sugar.
Don't be afraid to go hungry for a while, or to stuff your face.
Make your own food from scratch.
Know where your food comes from, support local producers.
Eat the freshest food you can get whenever possible.
Use as much as every animal as you can - organs, bones, whatever
Eat adequate amounts of magnesium, zinc, calcium, vitamin K2, and vitamin A if you want healthy bones and arteries.
Get lots of sun, or if you live in a wintery hellhole take lots of vitamin D.
Engage in some form of resistance training.
Be happy. Never worry about food too much. Avoid all forms of neuroticism. Enjoy your food and never let it get in the way of life.

That's about all I can offer for general advice to a completely healthy 25 year old.

[Nozza]

Your diet would allow someone to exclusively eat pork pies, donuts + vitamin tablets and nothing else.

There is plenty of research linking large amounts of saturated fats and sugars with a number of diseases.

Where is the evidence that local food lowers mortality or is otherwise healthier? Making your own ice-cream or salami does not necessarily make it any healthier.

I'd say that advice is more meaningless and open to total abuse.

[Seriously-Dead]

Originally Posted by Nozza

Your diet would allow someone to exclusively eat pork pies, donuts + vitamin tablets and nothing else.

No it wouldn't, because in none of that do I say supplementation is an adequate replacement for whole food. I used the word "eat" not "supplement". And yeah, someone would totally go to the trouble of making their own donuts and pork pies on a daily basis.

There is plenty of research linking large amounts of saturated fats and sugars with a number of diseases.

And the evidence, much like the evidence for increasing vegetable consumption, sucks. You can't say these things without actually looking at the literature. Do your own actual research.

Where is the evidence that local food lowers mortality or is otherwise healthier? Making your own ice-cream or salami does not necessarily make it any healthier.

Local food, AKA food that doesn't sit on the shelf for very long, has drastically higher levels of micronutrients. Micronutrients are susceptible to decay like everything else. There have been studies done on this.

In conclusion: Do your own research. I am not here to spoonfeed you along anymore. I played your game long enough, I'm done.

[Nozza]

You didn't specify how the vitamins were obtained, or even why those ones are worth targetting over all the others.

I've done plenty of research. The current scientific consensus is that overeating of saturated fats carries health risks. You think you know better. Maybe you do. But then maybe you don't. I can't see how you can be so sure.

Quickly frozen veg can have even more nutrients than fresh veg and not be local. Local food nutrition may be lacking depending on the soil you have. Local veg is very limited by the time of year unless you living in the tropics.

You're not "spoon feeding" me, we're discussing something but it's nice to hear how you see yourself in these debates. Also that you think I'm playing a game. I'M not that's for sure. I'm just talking about how I see things. You seem good at picking faults in any evidence anyone presents but your own advice doesn't look any better than anything else I've seen, worse in fact.

[Seriously-Dead]

Originally Posted by Nozza

You didn't specify how the vitamins were obtained, or even why those ones are worth targetting over all the others.

I've done plenty of research. The current scientific consensus is that overeating of saturated fats carries health risks. You think you know better. Maybe you do. But then maybe you don't. I can't see how you can be so sure.

Quickly frozen veg can have even more nutrients than fresh veg and not be local. Local food nutrition may be lacking depending on the soil you have. Local veg is very limited by the time of year unless you living in the tropics.

You're not "spoon feeding" me, we're discussing something but it's nice to hear how you see yourself in these debates. Also that you think I'm playing a game. I'M not that's for sure. I'm just talking about how I see things. You seem good at picking faults in any evidence anyone presents but your own advice doesn't look any better than anything else I've seen, worse in fact.

What I gave you was a list that took me 3 minutes to type up, and amounted to "If a gun was pointed to your head... what would you say?" Don't read into it any further than that. I'm more into the business of dispelling common ideologies in nutrition, and less into promoting my own specific brand of nutrition. I think my posting history is evidence of that.

And yes, I do know better than what is commonly taught in colleges regarding nutrition. I am not reluctant to admit that, no false modesty here.

[Nozza]

I didn't hold a gun to your head but maybe that's what being asked to offer up something other than criticism feels like to you? It's easy to throw stones if you don't build any glass houses of your own.

But us mortals still need to make dietary decisions. You criticised what I thought was quite sensible and general advice that has the aim of: not eliminating any particular foods but encouraging the eating or lots of different foods (increase changes of not missing out on various nutrients) and filling the plate with nutrient dense but low calorie veg (local if you like) alongside your varying mix of meats, dairy and carbs. Yes it's very general but as you know, when you're not vague, it's easy for someone to point out the fact that the specifics have downsides.

I'm of the impression that our plates of food wouldn't look that dissimilar to be honest.

[Seriously-Dead]

Originally Posted by Nozza

I didn't hold a gun to your head but maybe that's what being asked to offer up something other than criticism feels like to you? It's easy to throw stones if you don't build any glass houses of your own.

No, I just appreciate situations and their complexity for what it is, and realize that broad recommendations are ultimately meaningless and empty in the end. Building up a conceptual framework that can applied to a variety of situations is what's really important, and what's lacking in nutrition.

I'm of the impression that our plates of food wouldn't look that dissimilar to be honest.

You might be right, or you might not. This weekend I ate 3 donuts, 2L of ice cream, wine, beer, homemade bread, homemade soup from homemade bone broth, lots of beef, philly cheese steak, hot chocolate, lots of coffee, fresh unhomogonized milk and no vegetables. And some candy thrown in there.

oh wait, i did have a carrot and some beet shavings. are we close yet?

[Nozza]

That would be me on a pretty bad weekend. So no not that close on an average day.

Sounds like a terrible diet to me but then I'm not the expert.

[tdu]

It's interesting to read some of the posts about the financial aspects of the diets.

I live in an area in Ontario (Canada) about an hour outside of Toronto. When I got interested in grass fed produce, I was able to easily find 3 sources. Buying even a smaller sized bulk order, the prices are not that much more than from any other meat sources at any of those 2 sources.

I also buy produce from a local organic farm. That is a whole other matter all together. The farm has greenhouses, so they have an extended season, but even at that I can't get a lot of produce year round. During the season, the produce is not much more than getting it from a supermarket. During the off season though when I have to get items from the supermarket, the costs of our weekly groceries for produce skyrocket.

Eating vegan all year round, or even vegetarian for that matter, in a healthy way would cost me way more than my current diet which is an attempt to eat a mix of things from healthy sources.

[tommy the kid]

Originally Posted by Seriously-Dead

Avoid all forms of neuroticism.

best advice