Vegan/Vegitarianism debunked by Paleo/Evolutionary Biology?

[immovablestone]

Originally Posted by EddieLovesYou

The math has been done

Perhaps, but it was done incorrectly ;)

[Daniel Tapia]

Originally Posted by Lance Freimuth

Then vegetarianism has a LONG way to go. I read a study that indicated that cereal grain monoculture kills about 25X more animals per gram of consumable protein than grass fed beef.

Unless we're not counting snakes, mice, birds, and bugs as animals, vegetarianism is the MOST prolific offender of animal deaths among all diets. At least in other diets the animals that die actual get eaten. For veggies, they sit in a field and rot.

Vegetarianism trades the seen for the unseen. Or more specifically, they remain willfully ignorant about the animals that die to facilitate their diet, while meat eaters are at least cognizant of the fact. And not coincidentally, they're willing that many MORE animals die so that they don't have to see it, rather than FEWER animals dying that they have to witness.

[rorydaboss]

Originally Posted by EddieLovesYou

1st: looking at what humans have eaten historically can be insightful, but remember that these people did not live to be 80-100 years old. Longevity is relatively new thing we factor into our diets.

2nd and most important: it is possible to thrive on a variety of diets, including a vegan diet. I wouldn't ever advocate becoming vegan for "health reasons" alone but if one wants to for environmental or ethical reasons then it is certainly possible (and not difficult) to do it without negative effects.

I have to agree with this. I would say that the optimal diet for most people is probably one that is rich in fruits, vegetables, lean meats, and healthy fats.

[SummerStriker]

Originally Posted by rorydaboss

I have to agree with this. I would say that the optimal diet for most people is probably one that is rich in fruits, vegetables, lean meats, and healthy fats.

I totally agree, and animal fat can be healthy too.

Vegetarianism's strongest argument isn't health. It is only self preservation in the sense that we need a healthy environment, and eating non-engineered plants is much much better for the environment that eating hormone filled, tortured animals fed a diet of engineered plants.

Traditionally raised, organic, humane meat is pretty damn good for you, better for animals, better for the environment, handles whatever craving for meat a person might have - it is practically perfect. I hope it catches on. I mostly just care for animal welfare and the environment, and cutting out factory meat is almost the single best thing you can do for the environment. It is better than getting rid of your car and burning one candle for light at night. Even cutting meat out one day a week is HUGE environmentally.

[Daniel Tapia]

Originally Posted by techninja

It's funny, I've just bought an E-reader (figuring it being a gadget, it may make me more inclined to read) and have downloaded a bunch of journals on the subject of vegan diets for athletes.

So far from what I've read, the key finding is a diet which has a large amount of fruit, vegetables seeds and nuts provides a very strong foundation for an athelte to work on. The reasoning is it helps protect the immune system, which is naturally damaged when an athlete trains at high intensity. They find that the biggest plus is a vegan/veggie diet provides the backbone to a sustainable camp, less time off and avoidance of illness.

However, they also say they believe a vegan/veggie diet, supplemented by meat, should provide the best mix of everything. This is what I am aiming for in my diet and it's been really effective. I've maintained my weight (around 185lbs), feel really, really healthy and have stripped some fat - Perfect for MMA

Very interesting. I, too, feel this way. It's a weird thing to explain to other people, "well, right now I'm a vegetarian but I also eat meat." They're like, "huh?"

But it works. It's like loving fruits, veggies, legumes and seeds so you're a plant lover and a kind of "vegetarian." And at the same time you understand that meats help fill in the gaps extremely well with some amino-acids and vitamins and that they're delicious.

[EddieLovesYou]

I've been vegan for 10 years and I also feel that an optimum diet is likely vegan with small amounts of high quality eggs, fish, and beef/game. I choose a vegan diet for more than just health reasons, however, and maintain that there is nothing to "debunk" about it; it is a viable, healthy diet when done properly (which is not difficult).

The point I'm trying to make is that if one cares about the moral and environmental issues and wants to be vegan for THOSE reasons then it is possible to make dietary choices that are in line with those stances without hindering themselves physically.

[Daniel Tapia]

Originally Posted by EddieLovesYou

I've been vegan for 10 years and I also feel that an optimum diet is likely vegan with small amounts of high quality eggs, fish, and beef/game. I choose a vegan diet for more than just health reasons, however, and maintain that there is nothing to "debunk" about it; it is a viable, healthy diet when done properly (which is not difficult).

The point I'm trying to make is that if one cares about the moral and environmental issues and wants to be vegan for THOSE reasons then it is possible to make dietary choices that are in line with those stances without hindering themselves physically.

I'm right with you on this. This to me is truth!

[akimbo187]

Originally Posted by EddieLovesYou

I've been vegan for 10 years and I also feel that an optimum diet is likely vegan with small amounts of high quality eggs, fish, and beef/game. I choose a vegan diet for more than just health reasons, however, and maintain that there is nothing to "debunk" about it; it is a viable, healthy diet when done properly (which is not difficult).

The point I'm trying to make is that if one cares about the moral and environmental issues and wants to be vegan for THOSE reasons then it is possible to make dietary choices that are in line with those stances without hindering themselves physically.

Excellently said. I am also vegetarian, and the choice came when I tried to live a proper vegetarian diet for a few months and felt better mentally, and physically (as confirmed by my medical tests). If done properly, the vegetarian diet will never hinder physical growth or performance. For me it's a personal choice that no research could change. I tried a strictly meat diet about 6 years ago, and my cholesterol was through the roof, and I didn't have as much energy. Then I switched to completely vegetarian, and I felt really good, and my doctor confirmed this. But if meat gives you energy, makes you feel good, and you see nothing wrong, then by all means enjoy it.

[CauseImbetta]

I abandoned a paleo diet for vegetarian for the following reasons:
1) I read both books: the paleo diet and paleo diet foe atheletsn and found it's difficult to sustain such a diet in modern society as lean game meat is verynexoensixe and hard to find.
2) paleo for athletes recommends much more carb intake. I found myself eating unpaleo foods to get the carbs, so that defeated the purpose.
3) how lean is lean enough?
4) the studies about red meat are consistent, increase cardiovascular disease and cancer cells.
5) I saw a movie called forks over knives. It scared the hell out of me as study after study showed the detrimental effects of red meat.
6) cutting meat out was hard, but after 3 days I felt less sluggish and overall got better results on my cholesterol levels. If Matt Danzig can do it so can we!!

[Siderealmotion]

Originally Posted by CauseImbetta

4) the studies about red meat are consistent, increase cardiovascular disease and cancer cells.

Not quite. Red meat eaters have higher risks of ischemia and cancer. That's an important distinction.

Originally Posted by CauseImbetta

5) I saw a movie called forks over knives. It scared the hell out of me as study after study showed the detrimental effects of red meat.

Forks Over Knives is propaganda. As far as studies go, you may want to ponder the fact that graduating college has almost ten times as big of an impact on mortality rate as going from the standard american diet to veganism. Do college degrees provide magical protection from terminal illness, or are we ready to admit that diet, like education, correlates to overall health, rather than explaining it?

Originally Posted by CauseImbetta

6) cutting meat out was hard, but after 3 days I felt less sluggish and overall got better results on my cholesterol levels. If Matt Danzig can do it so can we!!

Increased energy level is the biggest change noted by people switching to just about any diet. It's likely either psychosomatic or just a natural function of drastic dietary change.