Vegan/Vegitarianism debunked by Paleo/Evolutionary Biology?

[scottm]

My great grandpa lived to over 93 ... and put butter on everything (which we know is ok), but also ate corn flakes with sugar on it and lots of ice cream daily. So I have no clue.

Summer striker is more on point - the crap and chemicals we are subjected to outside of our diet is still pretty detrimental, every time I work on a bike or car and am covered in oil I wonder if all my antioxidant intake was for nothing lol. Not too mention stress (which most of us are subjected to in one form or another daily) can seriously influence chronic inflammation.

[ocean size]

Originally Posted by Lance Freimuth

Then vegetarianism has a LONG way to go. I read a study that indicated that cereal grain monoculture kills about 25X more animals per gram of consumable protein than grass fed beef.

Unless we're not counting snakes, mice, birds, and bugs as animals, vegetarianism is the MOST prolific offender of animal deaths among all diets. At least in other diets the animals that die actual get eaten. For veggies, they sit in a field and rot.

Vegetarianism trades the seen for the unseen. Or more specifically, they remain willfully ignorant about the animals that die to facilitate their diet, while meat eaters are at least cognizant of the fact. And not coincidentally, they're willing that many MORE animals die so that they don't have to see it, rather than FEWER animals dying that they have to witness.

I'd like to see that study.

Other than a small proportion of totally grass fed and finished beef, what do you think livestock eats? A lot of grain. By your logic, an omnivore consumes the 'seen' animal as well as many more 'unseen' animals than the veg.

A lb. of beef typically requires 7 lbs of grain, so I think the veg. is still the lesser of two evils.

[Lance Freimuth]

Originally Posted by ocean size

I'd like to see that study.

Other than a small proportion of totally grass fed and finished beef, what do you think livestock eats? A lot of grain. By your logic, an omnivore consumes the 'seen' animal as well as many more 'unseen' animals than the veg.

A lb. of beef typically requires 7 lbs of grain, so I think the veg. is still the lesser of two evils.

I was pretty clear to state grass fed beef. Grass fed beef, by definition, eats grass. So, I won't even address that point.

[ocean size]

Originally Posted by Lance Freimuth

I was pretty clear to state grass fed beef. Grass fed beef, by definition, eats grass. So, I won't even address that point.

Yeah I did miss that my bad. How about the link to the study?

[EddieLovesYou]

Originally Posted by Lance Freimuth

Then vegetarianism has a LONG way to go. I read a study that indicated that cereal grain monoculture kills about 25X more animals per gram of consumable protein than grass fed beef.

Unless we're not counting snakes, mice, birds, and bugs as animals, vegetarianism is the MOST prolific offender of animal deaths among all diets. At least in other diets the animals that die actual get eaten. For veggies, they sit in a field and rot.

Vegetarianism trades the seen for the unseen. Or more specifically, they remain willfully ignorant about the animals that die to facilitate their diet, while meat eaters are at least cognizant of the fact. And not coincidentally, they're willing that many MORE animals die so that they don't have to see it, rather than FEWER animals dying that they have to witness.

Grass fed and finished beef still uses exponential amounts of water and land; these are harmful in ways that are even more "unseen" than the point you are trying to make. Not to mention that it would not be possible to produce the amount of animal protein we do today if it were all organic and grass fed. There are not enough of the aforementioned resources to do it. On the other hand if we used just a fraction of the land used to grow food for and store factory farmed animals to produce vegetables we would have such an abundance of food that it would likely disturb the world economy.

So understand that the whole "grass fed organic beef" mantra that is thrown around here so often is a diet of privilege and not one that is tenable for the world at large. It is likely that in our lifetimes such a commodity will become so expensive as to be unreachable for nearly everyone (as it is for most right now).

[Lance Freimuth]

Originally Posted by EddieLovesYou

Grass fed and finished beef still uses exponential amounts of water and land; these are harmful in ways that are even more "unseen" than the point you are trying to make. Not to mention that it would not be possible to produce the amount of animal protein we do today if it were all organic and grass fed. There are not enough of the aforementioned resources to do it. On the other hand if we used just a fraction of the land used to grow food for and store factory farmed animals to produce vegetables we would have such an abundance of food that it would likely disturb the world economy.

You're making a lot of assumptions without a lot of substance. If wheat and corn weren't subsidized out the ass to grow feed for cattle, there's no reason to think farmers wouldn't be able to convert that land to grass crop in the same quantities to feed to the cattle. After all corn and wheat plants are a type of grass. In nations without massive corn/wheat subsidizies, cattle are 100% grass fed without any of the nasty repercussions you hint at. Australia and Argentina cows are totally grass fed, and it hasn't destroyed the environment in those countries. I think you're reaching for straws.

So understand that the whole "grass fed organic beef" mantra that is thrown around here so often is a diet of privilege and not one that is tenable for the world at large. It is likely that in our lifetimes such a commodity will become so expensive as to be unreachable for nearly everyone (as it is for most right now).

100% grass fed/grass finished beef is $6 a pound at Wal-Mart. Not exactly Rockefeller expensive...

[scottm]

Originally Posted by Lance Freimuth

You're making a lot of assumptions without a lot of substance. If wheat and corn weren't subsidized out the ass to grow feed for cattle, there's no reason to think farmers wouldn't be able to convert that land to grass crop in the same quantities to feed to the cattle. After all corn and wheat plants are a type of grass. In nations without massive corn/wheat subsidizies, cattle are 100% grass fed without any of the nasty repercussions you hint at.

100% true. It's ridiculous what we rent our farm land for, and what the farmers still make.

[EddieLovesYou]

You're missing the point. Look up tropic levels and the laws of energy. Energy is lost exponentially as you go up a level. The math has been done and the world could not be fed on the kind of animal protein heavy diet that this forum holds so dear, let alone one where grass fed beef is a staple (since even more land is used in this case).

[Siderealmotion]

Originally Posted by EddieLovesYou

You're missing the point. Look up tropic levels and the laws of energy. Energy is lost exponentially as you go up a level. The math has been done and the world could not be fed on the kind of animal protein heavy diet that this forum holds so dear, let alone one where grass fed beef is a staple (since even more land is used in this case).

That's assumes that all land is equally usable for all forms of agriculture. There are large swaths of land where growing crops requires huge outlays of energy and water proportionate to the yield. Those same pieces of land can be used to feed certain foods animals with minimal energy expenditure. There is a reason cattle and goats are a common sight in arid regions.

[techninja]

It's funny, I've just bought an E-reader (figuring it being a gadget, it may make me more inclined to read) and have downloaded a bunch of journals on the subject of vegan diets for athletes.

So far from what I've read, the key finding is a diet which has a large amount of fruit, vegetables seeds and nuts provides a very strong foundation for an athelte to work on. The reasoning is it helps protect the immune system, which is naturally damaged when an athlete trains at high intensity. They find that the biggest plus is a vegan/veggie diet provides the backbone to a sustainable camp, less time off and avoidance of illness.

However, they also say they believe a vegan/veggie diet, supplemented by meat, should provide the best mix of everything. This is what I am aiming for in my diet and it's been really effective. I've maintained my weight (around 185lbs), feel really, really healthy and have stripped some fat - Perfect for MMA