Official Judo Thread II

[iama]

What can you do during randori if.. uki has his right arm stiff/pushing you back with the left loose? I find it impossible to move?

[Darkslide632]

Originally Posted by iama

What can you do during randori if.. uki has his right arm stiff/pushing you back with the left loose? I find it impossible to move?

Learn ude gaeshi. They'll cut it out.

[Darkslide632]

Originally Posted by RJ Green

Wakigatame can't be applied by you just diving to the mat or snapping their arm Aoki style. You have to bring them down in a skilled (read:controlled) manner. This is where it gets dicey. If the ref thought you endangered them, hansokumake. If they tapped while standing, hansokumake.

This is also where i point out flying armbar falls under section d, and is completely okay. I've heard some people from podunky ammy clubs that it's illegal, or a 'false attack', bullshit.

I've never heard that hansokumake should be given because of a standing waki gatame. It would have to be immediately effective, but that should be awarded ippon. The rules may have changed, I'm not staying up on them, but standing submission used to be legal as long as the effect was "immediately apparent" meaning, basically, that your opponent immediately tapped.

Did something change I'm unaware of?

[nomoremondays]

Originally Posted by Darkslide632

Did something change I'm unaware of?

nope. if you get the tap while standing its fine.

Whether the ref agrees is another matter...

[RJ Green]

Originally Posted by Darkslide632

I've never heard that hansokumake should be given because of a standing waki gatame. It would have to be immediately effective, but that should be awarded ippon. The rules may have changed, I'm not staying up on them, but standing submission used to be legal as long as the effect was "immediately apparent" meaning, basically, that your opponent immediately tapped.

Did something change I'm unaware of?

no standing subs. groundwork has to be on the ground.

you can start a technique provided you get the person to the ground 'safely' - starting an RNC and stepping back into a kneel, flying armbar, wakigatame to a kneel - but they have to be on the ground.

we had a ref seminar about 2 months ago where i played 'legal/not legal', and that's what the two national refs we have in the state said regarding standing subs. they also said omoplata 'probably' isn't legal since it's almost exclusively a shoulder lock, but kimura is okay since it 'usually' breaks the elbow/humerus first.

[nomoremondays]

Originally Posted by RJ Green

no standing subs. groundwork has to be on the ground.

you can start a technique provided you get the person to the ground 'safely' - starting an RNC and stepping back into a kneel, flying armbar, wakigatame to a kneel - but they have to be on the ground.

we had a ref seminar about 2 months ago where i played 'legal/not legal', and that's what the two national refs we have in the state said regarding standing subs. they also said omoplata 'probably' isn't legal since it's almost exclusively a shoulder lock, but kimura is okay since it 'usually' breaks the elbow/humerus first.

This will probably not go anywhere since you have your experience and I mine.

I will just state that it is an incorrect interpretation of the rules. Article 16 and 27 of the rules are to be noted.

[HassanSerag]

I'm now officially a yellow belt!

[Darkslide632]

Originally Posted by RJ Green

no standing subs. groundwork has to be on the ground.

you can start a technique provided you get the person to the ground 'safely' - starting an RNC and stepping back into a kneel, flying armbar, wakigatame to a kneel - but they have to be on the ground.

we had a ref seminar about 2 months ago where i played 'legal/not legal', and that's what the two national refs we have in the state said regarding standing subs. they also said omoplata 'probably' isn't legal since it's almost exclusively a shoulder lock, but kimura is okay since it 'usually' breaks the elbow/humerus first.

Huh. I guess I would have liked to hear the explanation, and/or where in the rules it is. I just went to look around at the rules, as, like I said, I haven't been keeping up with the changes, and I don't see anything that suggests hansokumake should be given for standing submissions. Quite the opposite, actually. Article 17, second 2 (h) says that matte should be called "when a contestant performs or attempts to perform Kansetsu-waza or Shime-waza from the standing position and the result is not sufficiently apparent." which is how I remember the rules. This suggests that 1) the call should be simply "matte" if there isn't an immediate submission and 2) that if the result IS sufficiently apparent, then the match should be allowed to continue.

I'm not saying you weren't told what you were told, I just would have been interested in asking some more clarifying questions, because that answer doesn't seem to jive with what the rules say about it.

I can sorta see how someone could interpret the rules how you say, but it seems pretty strange and is the only time I can think of where it would be ok to attempt an illegal move, just not ok to actually complete it. Regardless, I've never heard the rules interpreted that way, and HAVE seen standing submissions before... but not on an international level.

I'd pretty intrigued now.

[RJ Green]

Originally Posted by Darkslide632

Huh. I guess I would have liked to hear the explanation, and/or where in the rules it is. I just went to look around at the rules, as, like I said, I haven't been keeping up with the changes, and I don't see anything that suggests hansokumake should be given for standing submissions. Quite the opposite, actually. Article 17, second 2 (h) says that matte should be called "when a contestant performs or attempts to perform Kansetsu-waza or Shime-waza from the standing position and the result is not sufficiently apparent." which is how I remember the rules. This suggests that 1) the call should be simply "matte" if there isn't an immediate submission and 2) that if the result IS sufficiently apparent, then the match should be allowed to continue.

I'm not saying you weren't told what you were told, I just would have been interested in asking some more clarifying questions, because that answer doesn't seem to jive with what the rules say about it.

I can sorta see how someone could interpret the rules how you say, but it seems pretty strange and is the only time I can think of where it would be ok to attempt an illegal move, just not ok to actually complete it. Regardless, I've never heard the rules interpreted that way, and HAVE seen standing submissions before... but not on an international level.

I'd pretty intrigued now.

I asked, specifically, if subs could be finished standing. Its not in the rules that groundwork has to be applied solely on the ground. The answer I got was no, and that Tori could potentially be hansokumaked for endangering the opponent. I'm not gonna argue with a certified ref, even if I'm right.

There are vids of mid 80s kodokan tourneys where people do standing wakigatame, so it's not without precedent.

Ultimately, its up to the ref. Whether or not something is in the rules is irrelevant, if you get DQed, there's no formal system for protest.

Like I said, there is far too much ambiguity in the judo rules, and at the same time a lot of common situations that aren't addressed. Couple that with arbitrary interpretations of the ruleset and huge changes made every three years for the 'integrity' of the sport, and here we are.

I mean, someone's welcome to try a standing sub to see what happens, and next time I'm in the company of a ref I'll get clarification on what the proper call is, matte or hansoku. I think it's a context thing?

[iama]

Hi guys, as some of you may have read, I do 2 days of strength training a week which I do believe helps, eventually I will increase my s+c but for now I'm ok. I was wondering though if anyone does anything specifically to increase their speed?