The nation of Ireland fails...

[Denter]

Originally Posted by Dochter

I'm talking about general governmental intrusion but I forget that states rights people want that, just on their terms.

You know better that there is a huge, important distinction between the two.

I'm actually in favor of alot of liberal policies when executed at the state or local level. The genius of the federal system is that it allows the central government to function doing important national things while the states can have all the small fights about lesser issues.

Today, the feds are involved in practically everything, and that has led to huge amounts of resentment and a divided country. Because, whether its true or not, people feel like the federal government is too big and too far removed to influence.

Look at the way social liberals feel about the drug war- a distant federal government basically contradicting the will of the people of California. Its not the way this country was supposed to work.

[LucasWithLidOff]

It's sad that a woman died, but i take solace in knowing that many fetuses are being saved.

[Dochter]

Originally Posted by Denter

You know better that there is a huge, important distinction between the two.

I'm actually in favor of alot of liberal policies when executed at the state or local level. The genius of the federal system is that it allows the central government to function doing important national things while the states can have all the small fights about lesser issues.

Today, the feds are involved in practically everything, and that has led to huge amounts of resentment and a divided country. Because, whether its true or not, people feel like the federal government is too big and too far removed to influence.

Look at the way social liberals feel about the drug war- a distant federal government basically contradicting the will of the people of California. Its not the way this country was supposed to work.

I don't disagree that the federal government can be and has been overly intrusive. My biggest issue, which I've brought up in numerous libertarian threads or Paul support threads is that there is a major misunderstanding (or major ignorance) about what is one of the most important roles of the federal government. Arguably the most important role of the federal government is to curb infringement of rights by local/state governments. The idea of tyrannies of majorities is very real and often the supposed activism of the judicial branch is to break these tyrannies. These tyrannies seem to show up more on these "lesser issues" whether it is abortion, gun rights, or civil rights.

While there is no doubt that the federal government can be a threat to individual liberty there is also no doubt looking back in history that the federal government also plays a necessary role in protecting individual liberty.

[Denter]

Originally Posted by Dochter

I don't disagree that the federal government can be and has been overly intrusive. My biggest issue, which I've brought up in numerous libertarian threads or Paul support threads is that there is a major misunderstanding (or major ignorance) about what is one of the most important roles of the federal government. Arguably the most important role of the federal government is to curb infringement of rights by local/state governments. The idea of tyrannies of majorities is very real and often the supposed activism of the judicial branch is to break these tyrannies. These tyrannies seem to show up more on these "lesser issues" whether it is abortion, gun rights, or civil rights.

While there is no doubt that the federal government can be a threat to individual liberty there is also no doubt looking back in history that the federal government also plays a necessary role in protecting individual liberty.

I'll agree with that, which is why the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments were passed- but the abortion issue is not mentioned in the Constitution at all. The right was invented whole-cloth.

[Dochter]

Originally Posted by Denter

I'll agree with that, which is why the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments were passed- but the abortion issue is not mentioned in the Constitution at all. The right was invented whole-cloth.

There are lots of things not mentioned explicitly, doesn't mean the government can simply tell you "fuck you, you don't have that right". It is worth reading up on how the idea of a "right to privacy" is supported. It was not invented whole-cloth it, arguably, necessarily follows from several other explicitly listed rights in the Bill of Rights. It also is a good thing to have for all of us regardless of someone's views on abortion. Also, while states rights folks like to point to the tenth, the ninth is also there too. Privacy is not a state power (10th) it would fall under an un-enumerated individual rights (9th).

Importantly though this is all based on an informal reading of things. I'm not a lawyer or a historian. I do, however, consider myself reasonably intelligent so I tend to think I grasp most of the less nuanced legal arguments.

[Jimmy Tuna]

So if a woman dies during an abortion, we should ban all abortions.

[Denter]

Originally Posted by Dochter

There are lots of things not mentioned explicitly, doesn't mean the government can simply tell you "fuck you, you don't have that right". It is worth reading up on how the idea of a "right to privacy" is supported. It was not invented whole-cloth it, arguably, necessarily follows from several other explicitly listed rights in the Bill of Rights. It also is a good thing to have for all of us regardless of someone's views on abortion. Also, while states rights folks like to point to the tenth, the ninth is also there too. Privacy is not a state power (10th) it would fall under an un-enumerated individual rights (9th).

Importantly though this is all based on an informal reading of things. I'm not a lawyer or a historian. I do, however, consider myself reasonably intelligent so I tend to think I grasp most of the less nuanced legal arguments.

I get that the due process, right to privacy and other "unwritten" rights were used to rule in Roe v. Wade. But this is where we start entering into the realm of judicial activism- interpreting a right as being present through the Fourteenth Amendment despite the legislative history of the 14th (21 states had abortion laws at the time, clearly not contemplated), the time-honored rights of states to make their own criminal law and centuries of precedent- you see where the concern comes from.

Could the court decide that the 14th' s privileges and immunities clause means...well, any other right? Isn't that the role of the Congress?

[Dochter]

Originally Posted by Denter

I get that the due process, right to privacy and other "unwritten" rights were used to rule in Roe v. Wade. But this is where we start entering into the realm of judicial activism- interpreting a right as being present through the Fourteenth Amendment despite the legislative history of the 14th (21 states had abortion laws at the time, clearly not contemplated), the time-honored rights of states to make their own criminal law and centuries of precedent- you see where the concern comes from.

Could the court decide that the 14th' s privileges and immunities clause means...well, any other right? Isn't that the role of the Congress?

Arguments about a right to privacy predate Roe v. Wade and are not based solely on the 14th, the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 9th all come together for it (like you say). What we're talking about in that context isn't criminal law but about governmental intrusion into the personal and private actions of individuals. In that context it is more conservatism than activism (protecting the un-enumerated rights talked about in the 9th). The difficulty of applying any of this to abortion stem from the lack of an objective and defensible scientific definition of when life begins. Certainly if "life" begins at conception this would be different and not necessarily apply.

[PainIsLIfe]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Tuna

So if a woman dies during an abortion, we should ban all abortions.

Works for me.

Pro-choice argument against will be:
women never die from the abortion, they die due to complications later.

[LogicalInsanity]

Pro Life Logic:

All life is sacred, especially the unborn...we must outlaw all abortion aka genocide of the unborn

poor children in the ghetto and poor communities??? THey are on their own.

Poor iraqi children having napalm, cluster bombs, white phosphorous dropped on them? Collateral damage or "spreading freedom."