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Old 08-17-2012, 04:33 AM   #51
dachsund1

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Jordan didn't make his teammates better? Everyone played better when they played with Jordan. Jordan has 6 rings. Olajuwon played in the same era. So did Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Miller, Wilkins, Drexler, David Robinson, Shaq. Olajuwon, Robinson and Drexler got there while or after Michael Jordan had retired. Magic Johnson was a 6'9 PG. He should make his teammates better. Olajuwon didn't win until Drexler got there and Jordan temporarily retired. People like Barkley who lost to Jordan in the finals with a stacked Suns team would disagree with Salley.
Olajuwon won the title the year before Clyde arrived.

I agree that Jordan did not necessarily make teammates better. He was a good passer so in that respect a little bit, but he made his team better primarily through his own excellence rather than what he brought out in others

For Jordan there is actually a perfect way to tell if he made guys better. Look at the team the year before his first retirement and the year after. Same guys for the most part.

Generally players play better when they have the ball more. Without Jordan everyone was getting more touches and most of the important players played better.
These are the guys who got the most minutes in 92-93 and were still with the team in the first post-Jordan year
Pippen played much better without Jordan, shooting better, rebounding better, more steals etc.

Horace Grant was also significantly better without MJ

BJ played the same, a few more shots so more points but lower percentages

Scott Williams slightly better without

Cartwright basically the same (very, very, slightly better without)

Where is the evidence for Jordan making any of these guys better?

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Old 08-17-2012, 07:57 AM   #52
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Defense wins championships and that dude is the biggest defensive presence of the last 30 years. He helped Detroit get a couple championships as well.
Disagree on being the biggest defensive presence of the last 30 years. I think Duncan, Garnett, Wallace, and Mourning were bigger deterrents due to their ability to force outside shots.

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This doesn't seem right to me. Got anything to back that up?
Jordan's Bulls had a good starting 5, but pretty much had a talentless bench until Kukoc showed up. They won a championship with Scott Williams and Stacy King being the first two guys off the bench and playing old Bill Cartwright a ton of minutes. Bill Wennington and Will Purdue combined for 30mins a game in the playoffs when they won a title. Both of where barely talented enough to be NBA players. They won a title with Bell Wennington, Jud Buechler, and Dicky Simpkins getting over a combined 30 minutes a game.

They were regularly playing players that would have gotten the Bruno Sundov experience on a team like Cleveland last year. One or two of those guys might have gotten on the court on a team like the 80s Celtics, Lakers, Sixers, the 2000's Lakers, Spurs, Pistons, and Mavericks teams, but doubtful as an actual contributor like they were on the Bulls.


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I agree about Shaq on D. Simultaneously one of the greatest players ever, and the biggest waste of talent I can think of.
You watched the the '04 finals and came away with Shaq being the biggest waste of talent you can think of?

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Old 08-17-2012, 08:18 AM   #53
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Disagree on being the biggest defensive presence of the last 30 years. I think Duncan, Garnett, Wallace, and Mourning were bigger deterrents due to their ability to force outside shots.

Jordan's Bulls had a good starting 5, but pretty much had a talentless bench until Kukoc showed up. They won a championship with Scott Williams and Stacy King being the first two guys off the bench and playing old Bill Cartwright a ton of minutes. Bill Wennington and Will Purdue combined for 30mins a game in the playoffs when they won a title. Both of where barely talented enough to be NBA players. They won a title with Bell Wennington, Jud Buechler, and Dicky Simpkins getting over a combined 30 minutes a game.

They were regularly playing players that would have gotten the Bruno Sundov experience on a team like Cleveland last year. One or two of those guys might have gotten on the court on a team like the 80s Celtics, Lakers, Sixers, the 2000's Lakers, Spurs, Pistons, and Mavericks teams, but doubtful as an actual contributor like they were on the Bulls.

You watched the the '04 finals and came away with Shaq being the biggest waste of talent you can think of?
In my mind Shaq may be the biggest waste because he had a legitimate shot at GOAT and fell way short due to his laziness. you could argue guys like Tarpley, Richardson, some other guys like that or even go super deep with someone like Earl Manigault, but while those guys, and someone like Chris Webber, could have been perennial all stars, Shaq could have been Kareem or better.

Will Perdue got a lot of shit in his career but he played in the league for 13 years. He wasnt terrible. Wennington, Buechler and Simpkins got a combined 30? Wedman's ghost, Rick Carlisle and Greg Kite got more than that for the 1986 Celts, widely regarded as one of the best teams ever.

The fo fo fo Sixers had an awful bench.

The early Bulls had some talent on the bench. Hodges, Livingston, Paxson, etc. Not great but passable

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Old 08-17-2012, 10:07 AM   #54
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In my mind Shaq may be the biggest waste because he had a legitimate shot at GOAT and fell way short due to his laziness. you could argue guys like Tarpley, Richardson, some other guys like that or even go super deep with someone like Earl Manigault, but while those guys, and someone like Chris Webber, could have been perennial all stars, Shaq could have been Kareem or better.
Shaq was a 4 time champion, MVP (should have had about 4 more), and was the most dominant player in the league since Jordan. How that is a bigger waste than Rasheed Wallace is perplexing. Rasheed had the skills to be the best PF ever, yet he inexplicably only made it to 4 all-star games, never averaged 20ppg, and ended up more known for his personality than his play. He was as good a defender as Duncan and Garnett when he exerted himself, was ambidextrous, a phenomenal shooter for his size, well developed post-game, and a good passer.

I don't think Shaq comes close to top 10 in terms of wastes of talent.

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Will Perdue got a lot of shit in his career but he played in the league for 13 years. He wasnt terrible.
I should just give up here. Next you are going to sing the praises of Aaron Williams' storied 15 year career.

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Wedman's ghost, Rick Carlisle and Greg Kite got more than that for the 1986 Celts, widely regarded as one of the best teams ever.
Not in the playoffs, like those 3 did for the Bulls. And Wedman was still better than Wennington, Beuchler, and Simpkins.

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The early Bulls had some talent on the bench. Hodges, Livingston, Paxson, etc. Not great but passable
Wedman sucks but old ass Craig Hodges and his 38% shooting is talent. Ok, I am done.

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Old 08-17-2012, 12:02 PM   #55
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Shaq was a 4 time champion, MVP (should have had about 4 more),
You just made dachsund1's point for him. Shaq had a great career, but he should've had a GOAT career. He was definitely born with all the physical gifts to be the best ever but he simply did not have the discipline to realize his full potential. The reason he didn't get those 4 extra MVPs was because it was a league-wide consensus that he coasted through training camp and the regular season. He was the first player to sit out games when even the slightest of injuries crept up.

Anytime a guy underachieves to miss out on being the best ever, that's much more of a disappointing waste than some guy who maybe should've been an All-Star but slacked off too much. All-Stars are a dime a dozen.

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Old 08-17-2012, 01:19 PM   #56
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You just made dachsund1's point for him. Shaq had a great career, but he should've had a GOAT career. He was definitely born with all the physical gifts to be the best ever but he simply did not have the discipline to realize his full potential. The reason he didn't get those 4 extra MVPs was because it was a league-wide consensus that he coasted through training camp and the regular season. He was the first player to sit out games when even the slightest of injuries crept up.
He missed out because the writers didn't want to give it to him, despite being clearly the best player. Just like how Jordan should have beaten both Barkley and Malone those two years but they got tired of giving it to Jordan. Shaq had a strong case for MVP in '94, '95, '98, '99, '00, '01, '02, '03, and '05.

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Old 08-17-2012, 01:32 PM   #57
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94 and 95 - Hakeem was the best player in the game.
98 - Shaq only played in 60 games.
99 - he had a case but the Lakers weren't really considered a contender yet.
00 - Shaq was named MVP.
01 - only played in 74 games. Would have won anyways had he not been known to be lazy.
02 - only played in 67 games.
03 - only played in 67 games.
05 - only played in 73 games. Wade was the Heat's leading scorer.

MVP is a regular season award. Shaq set the standard for taking the regular season off. This lazy approach to the game can infect a team and is why Riley eventually ousted him from Miami. Shaq wanted to return to Miami in 2011 and Riley said no thanks and instead turned to Eric Dampier, a guy Shaq once referred to as Eric Damqueer lol.


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Old 08-17-2012, 03:09 PM   #58
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I agree about Shaq on D. Simultaneously one of the greatest players ever, and the biggest waste of talent I can think of.

He did make that half court shot, against the Nets I believe but like West's famous shot I think that going in has to be put down to luck. For clutch Im not sure, its sos ubjective because some guys, like a Steve Kerr or Robert Horry, make a lot of clutch shots but never take a contested one. Others like Kobe never take a last minute shot without being doubled. Here I would say Jordan, Dirk when he is playing well, Kobe if everyone had to take the same shot.

I think Malone was a big game player to some degree, but I wouldnt say he raised his game in big moments. He would have playoffs where he would carry his team but I remember Brian Grant taking him out of a series and the Jazz going down because of it
I thought more about Malone last night. If Shaq had played with Malone's effort in '04 the Lakers win the title. Malone busted ass to win a ring and I give him credit.

I agree that if you need a guy to get a shot off at the end of the game I'd probably have to go with Kobe. He can get his shot off with a hand in his face unlike anyone I've ever seen. For just being open and hitting the shot I'll stick with my list. And yeah, Horry was huge. 7 rings don't lie.

I'd also add to this that Kobe's last couple titles didn't have teams overflowing with talent. Only Gasol could make an all-star team and Kobe is the only HOF player. Bench was Walton, Sash, Odom (when Bynum played), Turiaf, Farmar. I'd say Kobe won 2 titles with easily less surrounding talen than MJ had for his first run.


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He missed out because the writers didn't want to give it to him, despite being clearly the best player. Just like how Jordan should have beaten both Barkley and Malone those two years but they got tired of giving it to Jordan. Shaq had a strong case for MVP in '94, '95, '98, '99, '00, '01, '02, '03, and '05.
Yeah I don't know about this. Especially those last four years.

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Old 08-17-2012, 03:14 PM   #59
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I'm not reading the previous pages. Every team that the Bulls played had better talent if you take the top two players off the team. THe Laker match up was the closest. Utah, Phoenix, Portland (definitely) and the Sonics all had better talent 2-12 than the Bulls.

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Old 08-17-2012, 03:22 PM   #60
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TS: I'm convinced you are trolling (repeatedly).

I'm not reading the previous pages. Every team that the Bulls played had better talent if you take the top two players off the team. THe Laker match up was the closest. Utah, Phoenix, Portland (definitely) and the Sonics all had better talent 2-12 than the Bulls.
I forgot about the Blazers. Take away Drexler and who though? Cliff Robinson or Porter? Either way, Porter was a better pg than anybody on the Bulls and I would take Robinson or Kersey over Grant, and Duckworth over Cartwright.

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