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Old 03-20-2007, 05:56 PM   #1
loneone18
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The peaceful verses of the Quran outlaw the murder of innocent people, women,children

I wonder why these verses aren't mentioned on Fox news?

My point of this post is to offer an alternative means of looking at Islam. Things aren't black and white in this world. True that negative aspects of Islam exist when one tries to appply 8th century society to today's world but there are also moderate and peaceful aspects of the religion which are overshadowed.

"PLEASE FOR THE SAKE OF WHOEVER IS UPSTAIRS DO NOT TURN THIS THREAD INTO ISLAM VS CHRISTIANITY OR KILL ALL MUSLIMS OR ISLAM IS EVIL"

Lets talk rationally and with an open mind....From my knowledge I dont think someone has ever argued for Islam on this forum. I want to face the challenge

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (The Noble Quran, 8:61)"

"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear God, the cherisher of the worlds. (The Noble Quran, 5:28)"

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2:193)"

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

"Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (The Noble Quran, 15:2-3)"

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......(The Noble Quran, 18:29)"

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! (The Noble Quran, 10:99)"

"Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)"

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"

The Prophet Prohibited the Killing of Women and Children

There are so much hadith where the Prophet condemned the killing of innocent women and children during time of war that it is impossible to deny them.



Saheeh Bukhari

Volume 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 257.

Narrated By 'Abdullah : During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.


Volume 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 258.

Narrated By Ibn 'Umar : During some of the Ghazawat of Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.


Saheeh Muslim

Book 019, Hadith Number 4319.

Chapter : Prohibition of killing women and children in war.

It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that a woman was found killed in one of the battles fought by the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He disapproved of the killing of women and children.





Book 019, Hadith Number 4320.

Chapter : Prohibition of killing women and children in war.

It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children.




Sunan Abu Dawood

Book 008, Hadith Number 2663.
------------------------------
Chapter : Not known.

Narated By Rabah ibn Rabi' : When we were with the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) on an expedition, he saw some people collected together over something and sent a man and said: See, what are these people collected around? He then came and said: They are round a woman who has been killed. He said: This is not one with whom fighting should have taken place. Khalid ibn al-Walid was in charge of the van; so he sent a man and said: Tell Khalid not to kill a woman or a hired servant.



Maliks Muwatta

Book 021, Hadith Number 008.

Section : Prohibition against Killing Women and Children in Military Expeditions.



Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that a son of Kab ibn Malik (Malik believed that ibn Shihab said it was Abd ar-Rahman ibn Kab) said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, forbade those who fought ibn Abi Huqayq (a treacherous jew from Madina) to kill women and children. He said that one of the men fighting had said, 'The wife of ibn Abi Huqayq began screaming and I repeatedly raised my sword against her. Then I would remember the prohibition of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, so I would stop. Had it not been for that, we would have been rid of her.'"



Book 021, Hadith Number 009.

Section : Prohibition against Killing Women and Children in Military Expeditions.



Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Ibn Umar that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, saw the corpse of a woman who had been slain in one of the raids, and he disapproved of it and forbade the killing of women and children.





Book 021, Hadith Number 010.

Section : Prohibition against Killing Women and Children in Military Expeditions.


Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that Abu Bakr as-Siddiq was sending armies to ash-Sham. He went for a walk with Yazid ibn Abi Sufyan who was the commander of one of the battalions. It is claimed that Yazid said to Abu Bakr, "Will you ride or shall I get down?" Abu Bakrsaid, "I will not ride and you will not get down. I intend these steps of mine to be in the way of Allah."

Then Abu Bakr advised Yazid, "You will find a people who claim to have totally given themselves to Allah. Leave them to what they claim to have given themselves. You will find a people who have shaved the middle of their heads, strike what they have shaved with the sword.

"I advise you ten things| Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly."


Last edited by loneone18; 03-20-2007 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 03-20-2007, 05:59 PM   #2
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Many of us could match those with evil, violent verses from the quran. For example, see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Er7IbAGHk

The issue is not whether there's nice things said in there, becaue there obviously are some nice things in the Abrahamic religions, the issue is one of extremists being able to cherry pick the horrible things and commit atrocities for the dogma to which they have committed their lives, their Jihads.

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Old 03-20-2007, 06:11 PM   #3
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Most likely because radical Muslims is the group of Muslims that has the most impact on the world...

Doesn't matter if it is a minority, if it makes the most impact.

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Old 03-20-2007, 06:13 PM   #4
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radical Muslims are the number 1 problem with the world. you dont see radical christians killing anybody "well mabe mass suscide" but never running aroud with the bible blowing shit up. peace in the middle east!

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Old 03-20-2007, 06:13 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenu
Many of us could match those with evil, violent verses from the quran. For example, see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Er7IbAGHk

The issue is not whether there's nice things said in there, becaue there obviously are some nice things in the Abrahamic religions, the issue is one of extremists being able to cherry pick the horrible things and commit atrocities for the dogma to which they have committed their lives, their Jihads.
POINT BY POINT REBUTTAL

Koran 2:191
And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

This verse refers to the Meccan-Muslim war. This war was triggered by over 20 years of Meccan persecution against Muslims. Muslims believe that Mohammad was ordered to fight the Meccans after he left to Yathrib. True, that this verse is advocating war, but there is limits. Women, children, and the elderly were not harmed at all. The war only lasted until the enemy surrendered and then they were treated humanely as prisoners.

Koran commands Muslims to kill people they did not trust

Koran 4:91
You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

READ WHAT IT SAYS: Fight those who "Do not offer you peace and restrain their hands"

This is self defense.


Koran commands Muslims to kill people they thought to be idolaters

Koran 9:5
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Again, this is referring to the Meccan-Muslim war. The Meccans had persecuted the Muslims and the Muslims were commanded to fight back. This is referring to those people who claimed to be Muslims but betrayed the Muslim army.

Notice how it says: "If they repent and keep up prayer and the poor rate then leave them alone."


Koran commands Muslims to kill people if they thought it was a just cause

Koran 17:33
And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.

This is quite funny. Notice how it says "DO NOT KILL ANYONE EXCEPT FOR A JUST CAUSE."

Hmmmm...Whats a "just cause"?

If the person murders? Rapes? Commits treason?

Hadith commands Muslims to kill Jews

Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177: Narrated by Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. 'O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'"

This verse refers to the final day of judgment. IT DOES NOT COMMAND MUSLIMS TO KILL JEWS. This is when the Imam Mehdi (sort of like the savior) will come and kill the Jewish armies that will be engulfed in a war against Muslims.


Last edited by loneone18; 03-20-2007 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 03-20-2007, 06:15 PM   #6
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Like every other sacred text (written by man but taken as literal dogma), it is riddled with contradictions, inaccuracies, and supernatural vagueries that can be interpreted and twisted to support or condemn almost anything.

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Old 03-20-2007, 06:17 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by special_forces
radical Muslims are the number 1 problem with the world. you dont see radical christians killing anybody "well mabe mass suscide" but never running aroud with the bible blowing shit up. peace in the middle east!
That is true. Absolutely true.

But can't one also say that their political history plays a hand in their current state of mayhem? The Christian nations (western world) are all developed nations but most Muslim nations are either in a civil war or internally collapsing.

Let me ask you this question...

If lets say CHRISTIANITY was at war with an enemy, would priests use Christianity as a means of recruiting soldiers.?

After all the warcry during the Crusades was "Deus le volt" (im pretty sure thats spelled incorrectly)---"God wills it"

What does God will? Fighting? Looting? Destroying?

MY TAKE ON THE CURRENT CRISIS IS THIS: What started out as legitimate political struggles (chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, etc etc) have been infiltrated by Muslim Jihadists who use religion as a means of recruiting soldiers.

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Old 03-20-2007, 06:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by special_forces
radical Muslims are the number 1 problem with the world. you dont see radical christians killing anybody "well mabe mass suscide" but never running aroud with the bible blowing shit up. peace in the middle east!

Eric Rudolph and Timothy Mcveigh blew up abortion clinics in the name of religion. They were Christians, extremists yes but Christian nonetheless. They undoubtedly used the Bible as the reason for their terrorist activities. Whether people want to call them true Christians or not is another debate, yet they firmly believed in the Christian God and Jesus Christ.

I will agree that Christians (the majority at least) aren't running around blowing anything up right now however and that radical islamists do have a pretty bad track record with violence right now.

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Old 03-20-2007, 06:34 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by loneone18
POINT BY POINT REBUTTAL FOR EACH POINT
Fine.

1) Tell it to the terrorists who justify their actions with the koran.

2) That was a short video, there are plenty longer, more in-depth videos on there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SideofKO
Eric Rudolph and Timothy Mcveigh blew up abortion clinics in the name of religion. They were Christians, extremists yes but Christian nonetheless. They undoubtedly used the Bible as the reason for their terrorist activities. Whether people want to call them true Christians or not is another debate, yet they firmly believed in the Christian God and Jesus Christ.

I will agree that Christians (the majority at least) aren't running around blowing anything up right now however and that radical islamists do have a pretty bad track record with violence right now.
Aside from what you mentioned, reliance on Christian dogma can create a false morality, which is divorced from the reality of human suffering and the efforts to alleviate it; thus religious objections stand in the way of condom use, stem cell research, abortion, and the use of a promising new vaccine for the human papilloma virus.

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Old 03-21-2007, 03:16 PM   #10
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Radical anything will cause ignorant people to pigeonhole.

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