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Old 09-15-2011, 10:54 AM   #101
HAILEYBUG

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Originally Posted by Lethal Strike View Post
Lol.. Since the Sonnen fight now sherdog thinks any "Grappler" has a great chance against Silva.
ya like every grappler is even remotely equal to sonnen on the ground.

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Old 09-15-2011, 11:29 AM   #102
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Lol.. Since the Sonnen fight now sherdog thinks any "Grappler" has a great chance against Silva.
Its not just 'since the Sonnen fight'. People suspected that after the Lutter fight and thought Lutters gas tank cost him what could have been a much more competitive fight. People suspected it after the Hendo fight and thought if the old Decision Dan existed and instead H-Bomb Dan did not re-appear in every fight after, at most, one round of grappling, that the fight would have been much more competitive.

Sonnen was finally that guy. A grappler with a gas tank who could stick to a game plan. He did so and took Anderson to the very edge of a loss before Sonnen's huge hole cost him. He is a top wrestler who implements a controlfuck game for an entire 5 rounds who does not gas but is very vulnerable to subs. So what if you find a guy who possesses all the components and does not have the huge hole and vulnerability to subs? Can he go that last two minutes and get the win?

There is certainly no reason to not think that person would be a great and competitive matchup and pose a lot of problems for Anderson.

Carwin demonstrated clearly that someone who could defend Brock's td's and force him into a striking war was a big threat to him. YEs Brock still won that fight when Carwin gassed. But non-the-less we could all see the vulnerability.

Does that mean Cain or anyone else who can defend the TD's and force Borck to strike will beat him? After the Carwin fight we did not know. But to be blind to the stylistic threat is just that...blind.

My money is on Cain. How about you?

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Originally Posted by HAILEYBUG View Post
ya like every grappler is even remotely equal to sonnen on the ground.
Shields is. In fact he is better then Sonnen on the ground. He has the control with the threat of finishing.

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Old 09-15-2011, 11:50 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by aJudoaChopChop View Post
Shields is. In fact he is better then Sonnen on the ground. He has the control with the threat of finishing.
What competent grappler's has shields submitted? Daley, Lawler, Thompson?

c'mon Shields does well against people with poor ground games but against even decent grapplers he doesn't do well he couldn't submit okami, condit, hendo, kampman and was almost submitted by mayhem, he isn't some unstoppable force on the ground. I personally don't think he is fast or strong enough to even get silva on the ground

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Old 09-15-2011, 12:14 PM   #104
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What competent grappler's has shields submitted? Daley, Lawler, Thompson?
Thats irrelevant. DO you think Sonnen could submit the guys Shields did? If 'no' then he is more of a threat then Sonnen in that regard.


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c'mon Shields does well against people with poor ground games but against even decent grapplers he doesn't do well he couldn't submit okami, condit, hendo, kampman and was almost submitted by mayhem, he isn't some unstoppable force on the ground. I personally don't think he is fast or strong enough to even get silva on the ground
Wait...what?

You name a bunch of fights he won but say he did not do well because he did not submit them.Ya SHields poses the threat of submissions against top tier guys, like you just named, but he can always win via control to a decision.

Sonnen can only do one of those things. That is the point of the post you replied to. He poses the same threat Sonnen does, but with the ADDED risk of finishing via submission. I am not suggesting the submission is a sure thing or even likely.

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Old 09-15-2011, 12:22 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by aJudoaChopChop View Post
Thats irrelevant. DO you think Sonnen could submit the guys Shields did? If 'no' then he is more of a threat then Sonnen in that regard.


Wait...what?

You name a bunch of fights he won but say he did not do well because he did not submit them.Ya SHields poses the threat of submissions against top tier guys, like you just named, but he can always win via control to a decision.

Sonnen can only do one of those things. That is the point of the post you replied to. He poses the same threat Sonnen does, but with the ADDED risk of finishing via submission. I am not suggesting the submission is a sure thing or even likely.
Just because you won a fight doesn't mean you did well as you have claimed with Silva against Sonnen. Shields struggled against Okami and Kampmann and the decision could have gone either way in both those fights, mayhem did well against him and condit held his own on the ground. I wasn't trying to suggest that because he didn't submit he didn't do well but I wouldn't say Shields did particularly "well" against any of them except hendo.

Shields is a very good grappler but outside of hendo (who is not very good off his back) he has never dominated or done very well against other good grapplers which Silva is.

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Old 09-15-2011, 12:42 PM   #106
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Just because you won a fight doesn't mean you did well as you have claimed with Silva against Sonnen. Shields struggled against Okami and Kampmann and the decision could have gone either way in both those fights, mayhem did well against him and condit held his own on the ground. I wasn't trying to suggest that because he didn't submit he didn't do well but I wouldn't say Shields did particularly "well" against any of them except hendo.

Shields is a very good grappler but outside of hendo (who is not very good off his back) he has never dominated or done very well against other good grapplers which Silva is.
I wouldn't rank Silva a very 'good grappler'. He is good in certain areas while not so good in others. He is good at using his length to control damage and good at throwing up legs for a triangle choke and that is about it unless he has stunned the person with strikes and can take advantage.

He is unable to escape or otherwise control position and when put on his back he usually ends up on his back waiting simply to counter mistakes or for the clock to run out so he can start the next round standing.

I don't think the debate is whether Shields could control Anderson or keep him down, ...once down. I think most accept that he could. Of course some in denial would say 'no way he may be able to td and keep down Hendo but not Anderson...no chance'...but no...most would suggest the question is 'can he get Anderson down and avoid the striking...or will he get KO'd'? That is where the debate lies.

But again the more delusional Anderson fans might see Anderson reversing, mounting and using a mounted gogo to submit Shields as I have found little connection to reality in dealing with the extreme fans but the debate should avoid those select few.

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Old 09-15-2011, 06:26 PM   #107
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Jake Shields was Ranked the #2 Middleweight after he last fought in that weight class.

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The latest MMAWeekly World MMA Rankings were released on Wednesday, October 6 (2010).

MIDDLEWEIGHT DIVISION (185-pound limit)

1. Anderson Silva
2. Jake Shields
3. Nathan Marquardt
4. Demian Maia
5. Dan Henderson
6. Yushin Okami
7. Robbie Lawler
8. Jorge Santiago
9. Ronaldo “Jacare” de Souza
10. Michael Bisping
Wow (bored "wow", not a Joe Rogan "WWWOW!!!"). That is a real who's who.

Apart from AS, a who's who of people he has pounded or who haven't been good enough to get an opportunity to get pounded by him.

If Shields actually got to fight AS, it might make him interesting for about a round and a half.

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Old 09-15-2011, 06:29 PM   #108
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I think Jake has a great chance at both weights... however...

I really thought that after how he mandhandled Hendo, he was going to be the biggest threat to GSP to date but ended up just being the next in line to lose.

I figured he'd be able to do the same to GSP or Silva but seeing how much trouble he had with GSP, I don't think it's happening. His striking, while good enough to keep GSP at bay, is nowhere near where it would need to be to hold off Silva, and just like in the GSP fight, he wouldn't have a chance to showcase his grappling.
You have to remember that Hendo handled him in that first round ... after that ... Hendo's back and cardio hurt him.

In a rematch ... Hendo fully healthy ... I say Hendo beats him badly.

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