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Grappling Technique You don't know a heel hook from a toe hold, and that's why you need to come here.

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Old 08-24-2011, 10:23 AM   #21
Vitamin C

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The car analogy was used in a previous thread and is a weak one. One is a material good which is owned solely by the purchaser to use as they please upon completion of the contract and the other is an ongoing personal service. Value then is not determined by the material good, but by the quality of instruction and overall consumers satisfaction.

How valuable is being taught an armbar? If I taught you how to armbar, I could not even fairly charge you a price, as I have no legitimate authority to teach grappling. Dave Camarillo however, his armbar instruction will be very valuable.

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Old 08-24-2011, 11:02 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Vitamin C View Post
The car analogy was used in a previous thread and is a weak one. One is a material good which is owned solely by the purchaser to use as they please upon completion of the contract and the other is an ongoing personal service. Value then is not determined by the material good, but by the quality of instruction and overall consumers satisfaction.

How valuable is being taught an armbar? If I taught you how to armbar, I could not even fairly charge you a price, as I have no legitimate authority to teach grappling. Dave Camarillo however, his armbar instruction will be very valuable.
Fair enough and I would agree with your analysis above, but the point here is about being able to know the price before trying out the product if you would like to. Therefore if you know the product is out of your price range - you do not have to waste your time/resources trying it out.

The fact that value is determined by quality of instruction and customer satisfaction does not change the notion that for some - that value placed is to high of a cost for them to pay for BJJ and they will go elsewhere - why do they then have to still check out the gym if in the end it would have been to expensive for them anyway - knowing that ahead of time would save time/money. While the value determination may differ - the point remains - "why would I go and test drive a car that I know I can not afford"? is still a proper analogy to "why would I go and test a gym that I know I can not afford"? If I know the price will be to high for the budget - regardless of the quality - I still can not afford it.

I would place a high value on training at Marcelo Garcia's gym - but I simply can not afford it. Marcelo puts his prices up - readily avaliable for everyone to see and decide if they can pay that price or not. Therefore, I do not have to go out of my way to try it out just to find out after that I can not afford the price. I get why other gyms do not do this from a business perspective as mentioned but at the same time understand why a consumer may get fusturated in not being able to know a price before trying it out.

I have no problem with gyms charging whatever they want (I will not be one of those people ripping on gyms for high prices) - but there is nothing wrong with a consumer who would like to know the price before spending the time/money to check it out. There is nothing wrong with openly discussing on an open forum about the various gyms and compairing rates, etc..

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Old 08-24-2011, 11:13 AM   #23
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I know in the Toronto area there just about all of the gyms are increasing their prices. BJJ is really getting expensive.

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Old 08-24-2011, 12:18 PM   #24
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I pay 175 for unlimited training at one downtown gym. Great location, awesome facilities and great instruction. But yeah, the prices are getting ridiculous.

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Old 08-24-2011, 12:40 PM   #25
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OP: I'd recommend Budokan. Cesar and his group are really good. A lot of really experienced grapplers there.

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Old 08-24-2011, 01:24 PM   #26
Balto

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Originally Posted by climax View Post
Fair enough and I would agree with your analysis above, but the point here is about being able to know the price before trying out the product if you would like to. Therefore if you know the product is out of your price range - you do not have to waste your time/resources trying it out.

The fact that value is determined by quality of instruction and customer satisfaction does not change the notion that for some - that value placed is to high of a cost for them to pay for BJJ and they will go elsewhere - why do they then have to still check out the gym if in the end it would have been to expensive for them anyway - knowing that ahead of time would save time/money. While the value determination may differ - the point remains - "why would I go and test drive a car that I know I can not afford"? is still a proper analogy to "why would I go and test a gym that I know I can not afford"? If I know the price will be to high for the budget - regardless of the quality - I still can not afford it.

I would place a high value on training at Marcelo Garcia's gym - but I simply can not afford it. Marcelo puts his prices up - readily avaliable for everyone to see and decide if they can pay that price or not. Therefore, I do not have to go out of my way to try it out just to find out after that I can not afford the price. I get why other gyms do not do this from a business perspective as mentioned but at the same time understand why a consumer may get fusturated in not being able to know a price before trying it out.

I have no problem with gyms charging whatever they want (I will not be one of those people ripping on gyms for high prices) - but there is nothing wrong with a consumer who would like to know the price before spending the time/money to check it out. There is nothing wrong with openly discussing on an open forum about the various gyms and compairing rates, etc..
The reason the prices can't be quoted isn't to prevent people from budgeting. I could go into the fact that most people's true budget is much higher than they might initially think, but that is another can of worms so I will just simply set it aside at this point. For the sake of this argument here, I will simply accept that a person's initially quoted budget is all that he can possibly afford.

Here is what happens in reality:

People are usually scared to check out a gym in the first place, so they won't go check out two schools that are within budget. Say a person's budget is $150. Three schools are $175, $150, $100.

You are saying that this person should rule out $175 because it is not affordable. Then that person should check out $150 and $100 because they are. That would make sense, but it is not how people act in reality.

What I am saying is that this person will in reality just go straight to the $100 place, not even bother with the other two, and think that he saved $50-$75 when really he might be training at a more substandard place. The empirical fact is that most people operate this way, and it can be easily proven if you are a school owner who actually keeps track of these stats month by month.

Most of the people arguing for prices to be posted have never actually looked at the empirical data as a school owner. Try it sometime. Post your prices that are higher than your immediate competitors straight up and see how many potential students you convert to signed up students. Do that for six months and track it. Then take your prices down and do that for another six months. Track that number too. Try to keep the other variables the same.

If people acted rationally like the price posting proponents claim, the numbers should be about the same. Your price quote over the phone should only rule out people who truly cannot afford it no matter what. Those people would never sign up anyway since it is completely unaffordable, so even if they came in for a free trial without prices posted they would not convert to signed up students. You may have a lower conversion percentage, but the absolute numbers should be comparable.

Of course, I can tell you from personal empirical experience that these numbers will not be the same. People do not act rationally this way as a whole. You will have significantly less students signing up if you post the prices straight up. Potential students will jump straight to the lowest priced place and not even bother trying you out.

Regardless of how you theorize how people investigating schools should behave, they behave in the very predictable, empirically measurable way I have described. I have seen it happen again and again across multiple schools. It is just how it is. Trying to rationalize otherwise is like arguing that heavier things should fall faster. No matter how much sense that seems to make theoretically, it is empirically proven by the laws of physics to not be the case.

The challenge is to try it both ways and actually measure the results. You will see that not posting the prices gets you significantly more students signing up. That directly contradicts the fact that potential students are able to, on the whole, evaluate gyms fairly when given the prices up front. Their evaluation method changes dramatically if they try it first. It is not a budget thing.

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Old 08-25-2011, 10:56 PM   #27
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FYI:

I don't want to create drama (reason why I didn't list the name of the school nor my location at the start of this thread) and I acknowledge that Lin's MA is a great school - opening 7 days a week. However, I am a graduate student living on a tight budget; not to mention the fact that I still have undergrad debts. Spending 10+ hours/week training is in itself a large investment, and paying 180$ a month would really take a toll on my life at this point (especially since I might not have scholarship next year).

I am passionate about jujitsu, and I'm willing to spend all my spare time training. Unfortunately, there are other things I need to juggle in my life. Having a finical burden of paying 180$ per month might just be too much for me personally.


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Old 08-27-2011, 08:08 PM   #28
mmaisthebest619

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I trained at LIN MA the last couple of years, it HAD amazing grapplers to train with, but ever since the recent move to Team Loyd, the "so-called" black belt kicked out all of his top guys, because those guys were embarrassing the master on the mat, and didn't want to ruin his business. To be honest for that price there should be an MMA program, and a sick Thai program. Instead they have a white belt teaching the thai boxing, and has no MMA program!! You don't believe me ??? Go waste your money there. I would go to the new gym around that area Action Reaction.

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Old 08-27-2011, 09:28 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by mmaisthebest619 View Post
I trained at LIN MA the last couple of years, it HAD amazing grapplers to train with, but ever since the recent move to Team Loyd, the "so-called" black belt kicked out all of his top guys, because those guys were embarrassing the master on the mat, and didn't want to ruin his business. To be honest for that price there should be an MMA program, and a sick Thai program. Instead they have a white belt teaching the thai boxing, and has no MMA program!! You don't believe me ??? Go waste your money there. I would go to the new gym around that area Action Reaction.
Action and Reaction MMA is going to be an amazing club. I was there today with a few memebers from my team to train with everyone. Fernando Zulick is a great person/professor and has helped BJJ grow a lot in Ontario. Plus the facility is looking top knotch and its not even fully completed yet.

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Old 08-27-2011, 11:43 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by mmaisthebest619 View Post
I trained at LIN MA the last couple of years, it HAD amazing grapplers to train with, but ever since the recent move to Team Loyd, the "so-called" black belt kicked out all of his top guys, because those guys were embarrassing the master on the mat, and didn't want to ruin his business. To be honest for that price there should be an MMA program, and a sick Thai program. Instead they have a white belt teaching the thai boxing, and has no MMA program!! You don't believe me ??? Go waste your money there. I would go to the new gym around that area Action Reaction.
I don't want to believe that what you said about kicking out top guys is true. It's hard for me to imagine that would happen anywhere. Lin is a black belt though so I don't know what you are talking about. It almost seems like you are just promoting Action and Reaction.
ps I am not affiliated nor am I friends with Lin, but this shit just seems too ridiculous.

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