Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums

Go Back   Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums > Training Discussion > Grappling Technique

Grappling Technique You don't know a heel hook from a toe hold, and that's why you need to come here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-11-2012, 11:12 PM   #21
Sebg

Orange Belt
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 268
vCash: 500
John Jones - curse his stretch-model limbs - is very dangerous in the guard using his ELBOWS. I'd like to see more guys on the bottom try other guards than closed guard, such as Shawn Williams guard, Rubber Guard, Butterfly Guard etc.

At one stage Werdum claimed he had invented a new guard for MMA to avoid getting hit but that was 2-3 years ago and we haven't seen it yet - I suppose we haven't really seen anyone in his guard in that time; Fedor jumped into a triangle (although Werdum's claim was I am pretty sure after the Fedor fight) and Big Country stood over him to start GnP at one stage but Werdum got back to his feet and Overroid was in his guard only a very short time.


Last edited by Sebg; 04-11-2012 at 11:20 PM.
Sebg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 11:19 PM   #22
BJJ_Rage

Red Belt
 
BJJ_Rage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 9,999
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladimirtzu View Post
Lots of guys still kick ass with the guard in mma, but its a matter of style. You simply can not have an old school defensive game. If you're not moving, not attacking, not actively looking for sweeps and standups as well as submission counters, you're going to be getting hit in the face. A lot of fighters seem to worry way too much about having their guard passed too, which in mma, is not nearly as important as in competition jiujitsu. And the reason leads me to my next point.

Even if you're losing on the ground, you want to keep your opponent grappling, not ground and pounding. If he's busy passing your guard or having to control you, you're not taking damage. I think as a consequence of this, full closed guard is now one of the worst guard choices for anyone but the super lanky types. Reason being what your opponent wants to do to out grapple you is the exact same as what he wants to do to ground and pound you. Posture up.

If he's attacking your half guard or your butterfly guard instead, he's keeping his posture low. He's limited to more hammerfists and elbows then huge knockout shots. Same reason you'd want to avoid mount over side controll. If you're under his mount, he can posture. If you're under his side control and he does, you can get back to guard or standup.

So I think you're generally better off playing a half or butterfly guard, but more importantly, you just have to be SUPER active and keep him grappling, not g'n'ping.

edit: I think allowing kicks and knees on the ground would even the playing field a bit more too. We could specifically ban soccer kicks against the cage, but knees to an opponent you're sprawled out over or upkicks to an opponent in your guard wouldn't up the risk very much and would dramatically change some strategies. You'd be a hell of a lot more careful about posturing up in someones guard, and you'd be a lot more leary of just turtling up underneath your opponent. (People aren't now because the gloves make the rnc so much more defendable)
well, nice post, problem is, if he passes to side control, he rarely wanst to stay there (unless he wants to LnPyou), is just a position where he can transition to a better position, mount. Whiel its true that someone from half or mount can deliver way stronger punches, its also true that they are not getting an easy mount, and also, if he is attacking, he is also opening to counters.

Problem is the stupid rules, no matter how atcive your guard is, you will be losing, that is what makes the difference... even if the guy on bottom delivers 1000 elbows and the guy on top all is doing is striking those elbows with his face, he will still win the round, as long as he is on top, in retarded, but that is the reality (eventhough the rules say otherwise)

BJJ_Rage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 11:34 PM   #23
judokaboxer
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 233
vCash: 500
i think its part of the evolution of mma. before not everyone knows grappling (any people can fall for an arm triangle without noticing), then comes a time where everyone knows it, in the near future it will be standing game again and most graplings can be deflected but take down defence.

maybe top level wrestlers and judokas can apply throws even at the middle of strikes. in a recent fight i saw akiyama countered the 1-2 punch combination with an osoto-gari.

i think in the future there will be lots of striking involved

judokaboxer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 11:46 PM   #24
Herfavcolor90
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,084
vCash: 500
The rules are what make the guard less effective, not the position itself. Add in upkicks to a grounded opponent, and have proper scoring of submitted attempts? You'd see more successful guard play.

Herfavcolor90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2012, 11:47 PM   #25
The K1000

Orange Belt
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloth View Post
I don't do much MMA stuff, but I distinctly remember seeing Phil Cardella using some really nice guard stuff in an MMA fight a while back. Lots of the stuff that Relson Gracie teaches (at least in the seminars of his that I've been to). It was different than the way I've seen most other folks using the guard and I thought it was pretty awesome, I'll see if I can dig the video up for you guys.
I got my blue/purple under Phil. One of the things that always impressed me was how he'd use his guard to strike submit and constantly stay active.

I still use his reverse armbar to triangle combo to this day.

The K1000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 12:01 AM   #26
Supereem
Lord of the Mats
 
Supereem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Splash Heaven
Posts: 3,566
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebg View Post
John Jones - curse his stretch-model limbs - is very dangerous in the guard using his ELBOWS. I'd like to see more guys on the bottom try other guards than closed guard, such as Shawn Williams guard, Rubber Guard, Butterfly Guard etc.

At one stage Werdum claimed he had invented a new guard for MMA to avoid getting hit but that was 2-3 years ago and we haven't seen it yet - I suppose we haven't really seen anyone in his guard in that time; Fedor jumped into a triangle (although Werdum's claim was I am pretty sure after the Fedor fight) and Big Country stood over him to start GnP at one stage but Werdum got back to his feet and Overroid was in his guard only a very short time.
He made a video of it.

I though it wouldnt work because A) you had to be stronger than the opponent and B) because they could easily disengage, the whole concept revolved around the top guy attacking the bottom guy. It was a type of open guard if I remember correctly.

__________________
Free Paul Harris!

"If you cannot be conscious of the audience, be free to fight at home as a hobby" Saku
Supereem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 01:19 AM   #27
notafighter86

Blue Belt
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 570
vCash: 500
The guard does what it always has, protects you from side control. If they can't get side, they won't be taking Mount/Back/Knee on Belly etc.

notafighter86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 02:22 AM   #28
chunglii

Black Belt
 
chunglii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 5,050
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by judokaboxer View Post
i think its part of the evolution of mma. before not everyone knows grappling (any people can fall for an arm triangle without noticing), then comes a time where everyone knows it, in the near future it will be standing game again and most graplings can be deflected but take down defence.
Thats ridiculous. It's not like every single guy will be equal in BJJ skills, so everybody will resort to striking. Everybody knows bjj nowadays yes, but there are still those who are slightly better, or way better, who can submit others. It will never come to a point where everybody is exactly even on the ground, so we will still see plenty of ground fighting and bjj. Also, why isn't it the other way around, where everybody knows striking so nobody will strike? Will everything be evened out so nobody can do anything and they just stand there?

__________________
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena... his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." -Teddy Roosevelt

In Guard We Trust
chunglii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 02:30 AM   #29
judokaboxer
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 233
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunglii View Post
Thats ridiculous. It's not like every single guy will be equal in BJJ skills, so everybody will resort to striking. Everybody knows bjj nowadays yes, but there are still those who are slightly better, or way better, who can submit others. It will never come to a point where everybody is exactly even on the ground, so we will still see plenty of ground fighting and bjj. Also, why isn't it the other way around, where everybody knows striking so nobody will strike? Will everything be evened out so nobody can do anything and they just stand there?
a punch is good when one can land it. a take down is good when one can do it. every technique is good if one can land it. if no one can land a technique and the other lands in whatever it maybe, it is effective. brock lesnar cant land his wrestling with cain velasquez and he ate a lot of strikes and that made him loss. also the same as other ufc matches ive seen, if 2 person has equal grapling skills and the other one has an advantage in striking

GSP vs matt hughes, they both have same level of grapling but GSP has superior striking and that made him win. that is his advantage


Last edited by judokaboxer; 04-12-2012 at 02:43 AM. Reason: spell
judokaboxer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2012, 03:18 AM   #30
SBJ

Green Belt
 
SBJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,245
vCash: 500
In terms of being an actual "guard" (i.e. defensive position with the purpose of neutralizing damage from a stronger, larger opponent), the Best MMA Guard Ever = Royce Gracie

SBJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Latest Threads



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:48 AM.

Sherdog.com Forum Rules Clear Cookies Social Groups Lost Password
Contact Us - Sherdog Forums - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices

Skin made by Alex. © iStyles.uni.cc Powered by vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
forums.sherdog.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.
monitoring_string = "fd5733925866a04e50edd70f38dfaa35"
monitoring_string = "603ac9fff68f23709f2a42bf5e29272b"