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Standup Technique Jab, right hook, left cross... is it really that hard? Talk about it here.

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Old 08-21-2006, 12:09 PM   #1
TheMaster
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The Vertical fist

In Wing Chun the punch is normally done with power coming from the back leg springing up, and the pelvis going forward. Power also comes from the force of the elbow extending whilst keeping the shoulder back. The forearm and wrist are also involved in the power delivery. The punch is always done relaxed. This means that the biceps are kept relaxed and never tensed. Obviously the triceps are tensed as this happens in order to extend the punch, but keeping the arm relaxed means the triceps do not get slowed down by bicep tension. Most of the power comes from the leg, it is not an Ďarmí punch. It is also done with the fist vertical, using the middle two knuckles.

Normally in Wing chun you maintain equilibrium of the body by not turning. There is also a stance shifting punch, basically the standard wing chun punch as above but with the addition of hip turn. My experience of punching using hip turn with the wing chun punch is that this is a very powerful straight punch but with a vertical fist. Although normally you don't use hip turn and the punch is still powerful, it adds significant force when hip turn is added.

Does anyone else have experience of using the vertical fist, and how many fighters have used it in mma?

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Last edited by TheMaster; 08-21-2006 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 08-21-2006, 12:53 PM   #2
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If you ever watch Boxing, specifically Friday Night Fights on ESPN occasionally you'll see Teddy Atlas profile a very specific and effective type of jab. The old-school "trip-hammer" jab.

The way he does it he keeps the fist verticle, and from the cheekbone brings it straight down/out to the opponent's face.

He says this is one of the most effective types of jabs for numerous reasons:

1) It falls without warning. The fist is up, then it's not. And *bang*, you can tentatively bash the opponent's nose flat.

2) Less distance to travel than chambering the jab. If you have a reach advantage over the oppnent it's even moreso. So you can both intercept attacks and counter-punch with this jab with relative ease.

3) If your shoulders are in-position you can also have some bodyweight behind it. But that's all in where your feet are.

There's not much hip-turn in the Boxing version because it would add time to a punch that should be minimal in both time and effort needed. But with the shifting of bodyweight the same tentative power could be added.

If you watched that recent "Fight Science" thing on Discovery, one of the few very good moments was right at the beginning when they were measuring lbs of force in punches. The Wing Chun style punch that you name actually did well for itself considering. I'm sure harder than a lot of people anticipated.

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Old 08-21-2006, 01:02 PM   #3
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Interesting; I've always wondered about the effectiveness of the vertical fist versus horizontal, and this discussion has often popped up around traditional martial arts forums, but I've never heard it regarding boxing before.

In my limited experience, I've noticed the vertical fist is faster (for me) when used as a jab versus horizontal; but when using the horizontal, the shoulder seems to rotate up more, protecting that side of the chin/neck.

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Old 08-21-2006, 03:06 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kabuki
If you ever watch Boxing, specifically Friday Night Fights on ESPN occasionally you'll see Teddy Atlas profile a very specific and effective type of jab. The old-school "trip-hammer" jab.

The way he does it he keeps the fist verticle, and from the cheekbone brings it straight down/out to the opponent's face.

He says this is one of the most effective types of jabs for numerous reasons:

1) It falls without warning. The fist is up, then it's not. And *bang*, you can tentatively bash the opponent's nose flat.

2) Less distance to travel than chambering the jab. If you have a reach advantage over the oppnent it's even moreso. So you can both intercept attacks and counter-punch with this jab with relative ease.

3) If your shoulders are in-position you can also have some bodyweight behind it. But that's all in where your feet are.

There's not much hip-turn in the Boxing version because it would add time to a punch that should be minimal in both time and effort needed. But with the shifting of bodyweight the same tentative power could be added.

If you watched that recent "Fight Science" thing on Discovery, one of the few very good moments was right at the beginning when they were measuring lbs of force in punches. The Wing Chun style punch that you name actually did well for itself considering. I'm sure harder than a lot of people anticipated.
If the guy throwing that punch wasn't 120lbs, I'm sure it would have registered a lot better numbers.

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Old 08-21-2006, 03:40 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kabuki
If you ever watch Boxing, specifically Friday Night Fights on ESPN occasionally you'll see Teddy Atlas profile a very specific and effective type of jab. The old-school "trip-hammer" jab.

The way he does it he keeps the fist verticle, and from the cheekbone brings it straight down/out to the opponent's face.

He says this is one of the most effective types of jabs for numerous reasons:

1) It falls without warning. The fist is up, then it's not. And *bang*, you can tentatively bash the opponent's nose flat.

2) Less distance to travel than chambering the jab. If you have a reach advantage over the oppnent it's even moreso. So you can both intercept attacks and counter-punch with this jab with relative ease.

3) If your shoulders are in-position you can also have some bodyweight behind it. But that's all in where your feet are.

There's not much hip-turn in the Boxing version because it would add time to a punch that should be minimal in both time and effort needed. But with the shifting of bodyweight the same tentative power could be added.

If you watched that recent "Fight Science" thing on Discovery, one of the few very good moments was right at the beginning when they were measuring lbs of force in punches. The Wing Chun style punch that you name actually did well for itself considering. I'm sure harder than a lot of people anticipated.
I can't recall ever seeing this punch in a boxing match. Are there any fighters around today who use it?

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Old 08-21-2006, 04:05 PM   #6
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The vertical fist is more efficient if we're talking energy floor->fist because it maintains a more straight powerline between your muscles. It's also faster, slips through the guard more easilly, and leaves you more in balance after being thrown.
But if you want punching power you have to realize it doesn't come from how you angle your hand. It comes from putting your entire body into it. Your random halfassed boxer out-punches most people on the planet of other styles. Why?

It's what he does.

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Old 08-21-2006, 05:19 PM   #7
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it is safer then a horizontal fist without gloves. at least in most literature ive read.

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Old 08-21-2006, 05:34 PM   #8
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mark hunt does it a lot

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Old 08-21-2006, 08:58 PM   #9
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Quote:
I can't recall ever seeing this punch in a boxing match. Are there any fighters around today who use it?
Floyd Mayweather Jr. used it a great deal in his fight with Zab Judah.

And there's actually a lot of guys who use it. Winky Wright uses it occasionally as well. It's a tool in the toolbox, so you won't see it exclusively. But it is used quite a bit. Mainly guys with speed and long arms use it.

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Old 08-21-2006, 09:29 PM   #10
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I see Tim Sylvia use it quite a bit.

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