Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums

Go Back   Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums > Training Discussion > Standup Technique

Standup Technique Jab, right hook, left cross... is it really that hard? Talk about it here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-06-2013, 06:58 PM   #1
Sinister
Doctor of Doom
 
Sinister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vegas
Posts: 38,272
vCash: 502
Icon2 Facing the center line:

I figured on the heels of the misunderstanding of Discipulus's talking point about "eye-contact" it would be a good time to do this thread I've been meaning to do for quite a while now, as this principal of fighting (on the feet) is being lost over the years. Similarly to grappling, if you can get behind your opponent, when striking, you have a significant advantage. But being as no combat sport allows attacks from behind, not turning the back, "behind the opponent" means something different. It simply means beyond the effective scope of their peripheral vision. This is where you want to go when we say "get an angle"...idealistically. You can get angles from within the field of vision, but that's another thread. Now, theoretically when two fighters square off they're facing each other. You've all seen me post that I like the lead toe to be aimed at the opponent's center line, as well as the lead hand, hip, and shoulder. This gives them a direct threat. Early boxers did this without deviation, and regardless of the proximity of the opponent (how close together they were):







Note the direction each of their lead toes are pointing. Even if the upper-body positioning does change to suit the attacks, the lower-body remains positioned correctly. This is a big deal, because if anything can be sacrificed it's the upper-body positioning, not the lower. Nowadays a lot of instructors have gotten away from explaining the full intricacies of WHY their students should be doing this. If any of you have watched a lot of old boxing fights, you may have noticed a difference in pacing compared to modern fights. How the fighters stand is in direct relation to that. When your stance allows for your opponent to not feel threatened greatly, then they are free to attack you. If his stance is the same, fighting will commence quickly. Everything becomes reactive, and it becomes twice as difficult to position the opponent TO be hurt by something. A game of hope, not a game of precise action. Take a look at the highlights from this bout between greats Tony Canzoneri, and Jimmy McLarnin. Each of them stand in a way that directly threatens each other, and when they do launch and miss attacks, they each make re-gaining their positioning a priority:



Their skill and precision makes the fight kind of like a Wild West shootout. Lots of skilled attacking, and lots of skilled missing. McLarnin had a lot of success early, because he was deceptively skillful and strong as a bull. However, that Canzoneri NEVER gave Jimmy an angle where he didn't see Jimmy coming is what kept him safe. He remained facing the oncoming opponent. This is what carried Tony to the victory.

Another old timer who was fantastic at this principal, was Ike Williams:


[CONTINUED]

__________________
https://www.facebook.com/JohnnyToccosRingsideGym

https://www.youtube.com/user/LevantarAthletics

For nutritional/supplement advice e-mail to: luismonda@levantarathletics.com. Tips via paypal appreciated for speedy responses.

Last edited by Sinister; 03-06-2013 at 07:03 PM.
Sinister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 06:58 PM   #2
Sinister
Doctor of Doom
 
Sinister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vegas
Posts: 38,272
vCash: 502
Now, this principal is also true when facing an opposite-handed fighter. Recently Adrian Broner faced Lightweight Contender Antonio DeMarco. I'm no fan of Broner as a fighter, however, one thing I noticed immediately about his positioning was that despite giving up the outside angle (down the left side of his left foot), his ability to face DeMarco made all the difference in who could land what. In other words, gaining that position was no advantage for DeMarco, in fact, it was a trap (from about the 6 minute mark):



Wish I could have found better HL's of that fight, but even that little bit shows what I mean. DeMarco kept getting fooled into thinking he was in a dominant position because his right foot was outside of Broner's left foot. But he wasn't actually facing Broner very well. Broner was always in the advantageous position due to consistent facing of DeMarco's center line.

I myself attempt to instruct this same principal. However, for students of mine who deviate, they find out the hard way (you'll hear me yelling at the Southpaw to keep his back foot down, his stomping with his jab, front-foot heaviness and the back foot barely touching is what takes away his ability to keep up with the opponent, whom I was also working with at the time):



The moment he was facing the wrong direction, he got sat on his ass. And it was a balance knockdown, but all a judge will see is a likely 10-8 round. A little later in the footage you see the other guy pivot very well when attacked, to remain facing the oncoming opponent. Here's another instance of the same thing. My student, Bleu, was facing a Cuban kid who isn't very good, but is very aggressive. Watch what happens when he just happens to get Bleu facing the wrong direction (about 5:42):



That kid's erraticness was throwing Bleu off, he took control back the next round by not losing track of him. That said, here's another guy I help when he's here at the Gym against that same Cuban kid. Only watch how this kid NEVER gives up facing the Cuban kid...something his trainer is VERY good at instilling in his students:



Because Miguel is always facing Rolando, nothing hurts him. He can see it all coming, even the ones that DO land. This gives Miguel the initiative to control distance. Control of distance is the first principal of boxing defense, followed closely by positioning. Your stance can control distance by having depth, and appearing threatening. You LOOK as if you're prepared to hurt anyone who steps close to you. Positioning is never sacrificing your stance, or that threat...if it can be avoided. If you're almost always facing the opponent, people will find it very very difficult to initiate attacks.

__________________
https://www.facebook.com/JohnnyToccosRingsideGym

https://www.youtube.com/user/LevantarAthletics

For nutritional/supplement advice e-mail to: luismonda@levantarathletics.com. Tips via paypal appreciated for speedy responses.
Sinister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 07:31 PM   #3
Pugilistic

Green Belt
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,229
vCash: 500
Great thread once again. I'm going to focus more on this next time I spar. Regarding to Broner fight, the video didn't show their feet but was it because Demarco had his lead foot facing away from Broner? It seemed he was facing away from Broner at a slight angle as opposed to directly at him.

Why don't you like Broner anyway?

Pugilistic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 07:37 PM   #4
Nuclearlandmine
Shreddin'
 
Nuclearlandmine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The end of the earth
Posts: 4,014
vCash: 500
http://touch.dailymotion.com/video/x...12-11-17_sport

Full fight of Adrien Broner vs Antonio DeMarco for anyone interested. Broner did an exquisite job dismantling DeMarco and never seemed to be out of position even when DeMarco try to take the fight inside.

BTW, am i the only one who is annoyed at the commentating team's insistence that Broner's handspeed is the main reason why he succeed throughout the fight?

__________________
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
Nuclearlandmine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 07:52 PM   #5
Sinister
Doctor of Doom
 
Sinister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vegas
Posts: 38,272
vCash: 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic View Post
Great thread once again. I'm going to focus more on this next time I spar. Regarding to Broner fight, the video didn't show their feet but was it because Demarco had his lead foot facing away from Broner? It seemed he was facing away from Broner at a slight angle as opposed to directly at him.

Why don't you like Broner anyway?
Yes, he had his foot outside of Broner's, but his right arm and foot were no threat to him. Broner kept facing the middle of DeMarco's body, especially when DeMarco was squared-up. Poor Tony couldn't see a thing coming.

And I don't like Broner because he's a clown, and for about a year he fought guys significantly smaller than he is and didn't bother making weight for 3 bouts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclearlandmine View Post
BTW, am i the only one who is annoyed at the commentating team's insistence that Broner's handspeed is the main reason why he succeed throughout the fight?
It is annoying, but they have no real way of knowing any better.

__________________
https://www.facebook.com/JohnnyToccosRingsideGym

https://www.youtube.com/user/LevantarAthletics

For nutritional/supplement advice e-mail to: luismonda@levantarathletics.com. Tips via paypal appreciated for speedy responses.
Sinister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 08:13 PM   #6
Wanduraba

White Belt
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: We are all but mere pawns in a Greg Jackson gameplan
Posts: 76
vCash: 500
This is truly fascinating and highly informative.

I used to study/train in Wing Chun (now do MMA) and a high priority was placed on 'controlling' the centreline and protecting your own. I don't know if this is at least similar to what you've so graciously explained in detail but combined with the thread on posture+positioning and the threads on distancing (which I haven't found, but assume must exist) I feel I am gaining a solid understanding of the principles/fundamentals of striking which are at play in all forms of MA combat (underneath all of the combination jab-cross-l.b.hook-r.legkick etc. techniques, which is the only understanding of "technique" that I see taught in the gym), which is sad because these aspects are so much more important than having an infinite arsenal of combinations.

__________________
"I'm gonna take you to the bank, Senator Trent... to the blood bank."
- Steven Seagal

"Vannn-der-laaaaay Chhiiiiiiiiiiiiiibbbaaaaaaaa!!!!!!"
Wanduraba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 08:17 PM   #7
sourdiesel209

Blue Belt
 
sourdiesel209's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 856
vCash: 500
So basically, if you face your opponent all the time, your not letting him get an angle on you (to get you out of position)and this makes it easier for you to get an angle on him??... anyways good stuff, Ima try it out

sourdiesel209 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 08:45 PM   #8
KounterPunch
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,821
vCash: 500
I kinda agree with the OP. I say kinda because I've just skimmed through it but seriously , Sin , those two pics are the best you could find to illustrate your point ?

IMO it's why the term "old school" has a touch of that ridiculous vibe to it.

In the first pic , the guy's are so far apart they're not threatening anybody unless with a flamethrower.
The guy on the left , his right is so far forward with his body torqued in such a way that he has nothing to throw save a left hook .....from in close.
Still , not as bad as the joker on the right.
The guy's legs are in the orthodox stance while his upper body is in southpaw !!!
Is he dyslexic or something ?
I'll leave out how his neck is sticking out like a pigeon's or how his weight is so fa forward.
A lil kick on his behind and he'd have a mouthful of turf.

Second pic , guy on the left , flat footed and (more importantly) straight legged.
Right hand down so low he ain't parrying / blocking / defending the left plus that added distance he has to cover if he wants to land his right not to mention the awkward angle / position he'll have to overcome if he wants to torqu that right.

As for Ronald McDonald on the right , flat footed / weight forward / lead shoulder possibly too stiff / hands too low / torso too square ........take your pick.

KounterPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 08:56 PM   #9
pheonix5

Purple Belt
 
pheonix5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Dagobah
Posts: 1,786
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdiesel209 View Post
So basically, if you face your opponent all the time, your not letting him get an angle on you (to get you out of position)and this makes it easier for you to get an angle on him??... anyways good stuff, Ima try it out
It's the former,not letting him get an angle on you. As far as you getting an angle him, make sure he doesn't see this thread.

pheonix5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2013, 09:07 PM   #10
shs101

Blue Belt
 
shs101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: US
Posts: 549
vCash: 500
I'm most interested in your point of the front foot positioning,so you're saying if your front foot is facing your opponents center line you have the advantage? How so if 98% of boxing gyms they teach you from day 1 stand more sideways? Or am I missing something? I'd love to get more knowledge of this and see more video of modern day fighters successfully fighting like this. By no means am I arguing I'm just trying to get more insight on this topic. Thanks in advance

shs101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Latest Threads



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:43 PM.

Sherdog.com Forum Rules Clear Cookies Social Groups Lost Password
Contact Us - Sherdog Forums - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices

Skin made by Alex. © iStyles.uni.cc Powered by vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
forums.sherdog.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.
monitoring_string = "fd5733925866a04e50edd70f38dfaa35"
monitoring_string = "603ac9fff68f23709f2a42bf5e29272b"