Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums

Go Back   Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums > Training Discussion > Standup Technique

Standup Technique Jab, right hook, left cross... is it really that hard? Talk about it here.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-10-2008, 10:36 PM   #1
DoomsdayFAN**
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Area 51
Posts: 3,947
vCash: 500
Question Can someone tell me the difference between Kenpo/Shotokan/Kyokushin?

Overall, I was wondering what exactly is the difference between these three types of Karate? I dont want to be lame by thinking "Karate is just Karate." Which one is best for what?

DoomsdayFAN** is offline  
Old 05-10-2008, 10:44 PM   #2
TREE_TRUNK

Orange Belt
 
TREE_TRUNK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 384
vCash: 500
Karate means Empty hand so most martial arts are karate

Kyokushin kaikan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kenpō - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Shotokan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

__________________
Now I lay you down to sleep
because my choke is sunk so deep
feel the rush, your world goes black
all because you gave your back
TREE_TRUNK is offline  
Old 05-10-2008, 11:07 PM   #3
NinjaKilla187

Blue Belt
 
NinjaKilla187's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North West
Posts: 639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomsdayFAN View Post
Overall, I was wondering what exactly is the difference between these three types of Karate? I dont want to be lame by thinking "Karate is just Karate." Which one is best for what?
Shotokan is best for standing in front of a mirror practicing stances and defensive techniques that will never work in combat or competition, as well as doing ancient Okinawan Folk Dances known as "kata" where you have another outlet for practicing techniques that won't work outside the dojo. (I have a BB in Shotokan, lucky me...) If you are looking for old school traditional Karate it is A+, for fighting it is C- (see Lyoto Machida for a very notable exception to this, though)

Kenpo is like Shotokan except with a pseudo chinese or (allegedly) Hawaiian influence and black Gi with more corny patches. There are several different flavors. The tend to spar more than Shotokan which is better for fighting. They get in lots of pissing contests about which school/lineage is the more "authentic". They teach goofy "secret" pressure point shit that everyone else in the world already knows about and doesn't work well anyway. They seem to think that "flurries" (also known as combinations everywhere else in the combat world) are some kind of original technique, but at least they do teach combos. The footwork is marginally more useful than TMAs that don't spar much. For TMA I give it about a B. For fighting about a C+.

Kyokushin was the original bare knuckle full contact style started by Mas Oyama. It has also split into several styles. Back in the day it was the shizzle. After waaaaaay too many hand and facial injuries the main style of Kyokushin banned closed fist punches to the head in competition, resulting in it becoming sort of like half-assed Tae Kwon Do. If you can find a Kyokushin Dojo that still works punches to the head it is good stuff. Some of the offshoots also incorporate Judo (Kudo) and have their own system of MMA competition. Hard to find in the US though. For TMA I give it a B+ and fighting a solid B (assuming they are teaching sufficient hand techniques and defense).

If you want good standup and don't care about oriental mysticism, role playing, and wearing costumes try kickboxing or muay thai. Thats just my two cents...

__________________
Some uncredited JJJ guys > Some uncredited Judo guys > Count Maeda > Helio Gracie > Carlos Gracie > Carlos Gracie Jr. > JJ Machado > Eddie Bravo > Ari Bolden > The phucktardest Website ever > Me!
NinjaKilla187 is offline  
Old 05-10-2008, 11:22 PM   #4
DoomsdayFAN**
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Area 51
Posts: 3,947
vCash: 500
Do they ever have competitions against eachother?

DoomsdayFAN** is offline  
Old 05-10-2008, 11:33 PM   #5
NinjaKilla187

Blue Belt
 
NinjaKilla187's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North West
Posts: 639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomsdayFAN View Post
Do they ever have competitions against eachother?
Sure. US Open World NASKA Martial Arts Tournament for point fighting. I'm sure you can find a tournament in your area to watch.

For full contact you have K-1, ISKA Kickboxing, etc.

Once you get into professional full contact events practically nobody is using traditional Karate stances, defense, or hand techniques anyway. Which is why you might as well just start off with kickboxing or MT.

__________________
Some uncredited JJJ guys > Some uncredited Judo guys > Count Maeda > Helio Gracie > Carlos Gracie > Carlos Gracie Jr. > JJ Machado > Eddie Bravo > Ari Bolden > The phucktardest Website ever > Me!
NinjaKilla187 is offline  
Old 05-10-2008, 11:45 PM   #6
TREE_TRUNK

Orange Belt
 
TREE_TRUNK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 384
vCash: 500
dude there was just a point sparring tournament in burbank today at the marriot and as soon as summer rolls around there will plenty more in southern cali

__________________
Now I lay you down to sleep
because my choke is sunk so deep
feel the rush, your world goes black
all because you gave your back
TREE_TRUNK is offline  
Old 05-10-2008, 11:55 PM   #7
RJ Powell**
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Fightin' with human cocks
Posts: 2,383
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187 View Post
Shotokan is best for standing in front of a mirror practicing stances and defensive techniques that will never work in combat or competition, as well as doing ancient Okinawan Folk Dances known as "kata" where you have another outlet for practicing techniques that won't work outside the dojo. (I have a BB in Shotokan, lucky me...) If you are looking for old school traditional Karate it is A+, for fighting it is C- (see Lyoto Machida for a very notable exception to this, though)

Kenpo is like Shotokan except with a pseudo chinese or (allegedly) Hawaiian influence and black Gi with more corny patches. There are several different flavors. The tend to spar more than Shotokan which is better for fighting. They get in lots of pissing contests about which school/lineage is the more "authentic". They teach goofy "secret" pressure point shit that everyone else in the world already knows about and doesn't work well anyway. They seem to think that "flurries" (also known as combinations everywhere else in the combat world) are some kind of original technique, but at least they do teach combos. The footwork is marginally more useful than TMAs that don't spar much. For TMA I give it about a B. For fighting about a C+.

Kyokushin was the original bare knuckle full contact style started by Mas Oyama. It has also split into several styles. Back in the day it was the shizzle. After waaaaaay too many hand and facial injuries the main style of Kyokushin banned closed fist punches to the head in competition, resulting in it becoming sort of like half-assed Tae Kwon Do. If you can find a Kyokushin Dojo that still works punches to the head it is good stuff. Some of the offshoots also incorporate Judo (Kudo) and have their own system of MMA competition. Hard to find in the US though. For TMA I give it a B+ and fighting a solid B (assuming they are teaching sufficient hand techniques and defense).

If you want good standup and don't care about oriental mysticism, role playing, and wearing costumes try kickboxing or muay thai. Thats just my two cents...
this may not be the the most popular answer, but it is as true as you can get as far as these arts go.

I have a red belt in TKD, brown in kyokushin, Black in hawaiian kenpo, and did a little shotokan. Like it or not, all of what this guy is saying is true.

One a more positive note, my previous TMA training helped me with my balance in the clinch and i have automatic kicking power in muay thai.

I could've gotten these attributes in a more efficient way though. That is all.

*waits for flamestorm*, personally i think this guy's post was pretty evenhanded and factual.

Kenpo guys are ALWAYS feuding against eachother here in hawaii, even though they really can't fight, lol. It's all bullshit. The only time you should wear a gi is when you grapple anyway, or maybe for kyokushin if you want something competitive but don't want to get hit in the face.

oh yeah, for Muay thai as a TMA i give it an A-(depending on who is teaching it), as a fighting style an A+. So you win all around with muay thai.

RJ Powell** is offline  
Old 05-11-2008, 12:07 AM   #8
mvisit1

Blue Belt
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: MD
Posts: 750
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187 View Post
If you are looking for old school traditional Karate it is A+, for fighting it is C- (see Lyoto Machida for a very notable exception to this, though)

That about says it right there...It's not the art is the fighter...If you wanna talk trash about traditional karate, I'm sure Machida or GSP would have a thing or two to say, the same goes for Chuck Liddell and Kenpo.

mvisit1 is offline  
Old 05-11-2008, 12:10 AM   #9
RJ Powell**
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Fightin' with human cocks
Posts: 2,383
vCash: 500
i dont think anyone is talking trash about karate, this thread has been very fair in it's judgement thus far.

RJ Powell** is offline  
Old 05-11-2008, 12:30 AM   #10
NinjaKilla187

Blue Belt
 
NinjaKilla187's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North West
Posts: 639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvisit1 View Post
That about says it right there...It's not the art is the fighter...If you wanna talk trash about traditional karate, I'm sure Machida or GSP would have a thing or two to say, the same goes for Chuck Liddell and Kenpo.
It's like this, every second of your training life you spend practicing horse stance, and blocks like gedan barai, age uke, shuto uke, etc., are seconds you could spend learning something that might actually work. This is wasted time. A great fighter can overcome inefficient training and techniques but just think how much better he would be if he started out with shit that actually worked?

Even the best TMA fighters, guys like Lyoto Machida for example, can't make TMA techniques work in combat or competition. Not only do they not work, may of them are self defeating. Blocking full-power, full-contact, low kicks with the hands is a guaranteed way to fuck your hands up and eat lots of tasty counter punches to the head because your hands are too low to defend your head.

If you like TMA for the "philosophy", the camraderie and the feeling of belonging to some ancient warrior society or something, thats fine. If you want or need to have some skills that actually work in a fight, TMA will not only teach you shit that won't work it will give you bad habits that will take years to unlearn. I know. I started off in Shotokan and TKD, and have fucked around with a bunch of other stuff that doesn't work.

MMA, pro KB and MT are full of guys that started out in TMA. Almost all of them have transitioned to a style that uses the same basic punching and kicking techniques as well as defense. Its called evolution.

If you post video of a pro fighter, Lyoto Machida, GSP, or whoever else, in a traditional horse or front stance and using gedan barai or age uke in a fight I will take it all back...

__________________
Some uncredited JJJ guys > Some uncredited Judo guys > Count Maeda > Helio Gracie > Carlos Gracie > Carlos Gracie Jr. > JJ Machado > Eddie Bravo > Ari Bolden > The phucktardest Website ever > Me!
NinjaKilla187 is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Latest Threads



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:38 AM.

Sherdog.com Forum Rules Clear Cookies Social Groups Lost Password
Contact Us - Sherdog Forums - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices

Skin made by Alex. © iStyles.uni.cc Powered by vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
forums.sherdog.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.
monitoring_string = "fd5733925866a04e50edd70f38dfaa35"
monitoring_string = "603ac9fff68f23709f2a42bf5e29272b"